Avodah Mailing List

Volume 22: Number 2

Tue, 05 Dec 2006

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: menucha <menu@inter.net.il>
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:56:29 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Fw: Yaakov kissing Rachel


Now that's a dangerous precedent...............
menucha

SBA wrote:

>Also the Bnei Yisoschor has a slightly chasidishe pshat about the kiss, that
>when Yaakov saw Rochel, he saw a ''chefetz shel mitzvah'', ie,that he will
>be able to be mekayem the mitzvah of "piryeh verivyeh" - thus when he
>kissed her it was like kissing a sefer torah- and he was  kissing
> the ''chefzteh" of the mitzvah.  ayin shom.
>




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Message: 2
From: "Ari Meir Brodsky" <ari.brodsky@utoronto.ca>
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 08:31:55 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Friendly Reminder - Monday evening begin Prayer for


Dear Friends, shavua tov.

	This is just a friendly reminder to Jews outside of Eretz Yisrael
that our daily prayers should include the request for rain, beginning with
the Maariv service this Monday evening, December 4, 2006, corresponding to
the evening of 14 Kislev, 5767.  The phrase "Veten tal umatar livrakha" -
"Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of
the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach.

	Please be so kind as to remind friends and family members of this
event, especially those who may not have occasion to be in shul at that
time.

	The request for rain is begun in the Diaspora on the 60th day
following the fall equinox, as calculated according to the approximation
given by Shmuel in the Talmud.  If you are interested in more information
about this calculation, you may wish to follow the link below, to a
fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish
calendar, followed by a detailed discussion on why the prayer for rain
begins when it does.  Thanks to Russell Levy for the link:
www.lookstein.org/articles/veten_tal.htm

	Also, in case you ever find yourself stranded somewhere at Birkat
HaChodesh without a calendar listing the time of the Molad, you may want to
learn my Mental Molad Method, at:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/aribrodsky/MentalMoladMethod.htm

	And if you're curious about how often there are two Shabbatot during
Chanukka, as there are will be year, you can find that as well as other
Chanukka statistics at:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/aribrodsky/Chanukka.htm

	Finally, I wish a very happy first wedding anniversary to my sister
and brother-in-law, Sara and Noah Farkas, who were married last year on the
night we began praying for rain!

	This reminder is dedicated in memory of my dear Zaide, Morris O.
Brodsky, ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?"?,whose yortzeit, 14 Kislev, falls this
year on the day we begin praying for rain.


Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka,
Ari Brodsky.


-----------------------
Ari M. Brodsky
ari.brodsky@utoronto.ca





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Message: 3
From: "david guttmann" <david.guttman@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 09:41:06 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Sinai - Rambam - heard all or nothing?


I worked on this a while back when I discussed the Sinai experience
according to rambam with our group. The Rambam's lashon is "Vehakol medaber
eilav Veanu shome'im Moshe, Moshe lech emor lahem kach vekach" . In MN 1:65
explaining Dibur, he refers to this as follows "O kinuy al ha'inyan hamuvan
me'et hashem bein shenoda bekol nivra ... Lo she'hu yta'aleh diber be'otot
vekol..." The medaber therefore means that they apprehended that Moshe was
telling them what he got from God not necessarily the thing that he told
them. The problem that we have is with the "kach vekach" and I believe it
refers to what they heard from Moshe. In other words when Moshe said to them
"Kach vekach" they understood that it was coming from hashem.

This is further supported by MN 1:33 where he says" vehu hakol asher hissig
moshe vechol ysrael mimenu anochi velo yehyeh lecha, ve'hishmiam Moshe et
zeh bemilim bechituch otyot hanishmaot" in other words they apprehended that
God told Moshe to tell them something but the content was given by Moshe.

I am using rav Kaffah's edition in my quotes from MN.


David Guttmann
 
If you agree that Believing is Knowing, join me in the search for Knowledge
at http://yediah.blogspot.com/ 
 
Ve'izen vechiker (Kohelet 12:9) subscribe to Hakirah at www.hakirah.org 




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Message: 4
From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 01:54:16 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] Shaking the pushkeh


From: "Allen Gerstl" <>
For many years I davened during the week at the shul where the shamas (alav
ha-shalom) would carry the shul's pusha among the mitpalelim during chazaret
ha-shatz.  He would begin his collection procedure by louding shaking the
pushka so as to announce the collection had begun. This greatly bothered me
>>>

See Minhag Yisroel Torah (vol 1 p.230) with deyos pro and con.

SBA 




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Message: 5
From: "SBA" <areivim@sba2.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 02:09:51 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] Yeshivas Shem voEiver


Besides Yaakov Ovinu, who else studied there??

SBA



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Message: 6
From: "Marty Bluke" <marty.bluke@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 21:57:38 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] Who was Dina's mother?


In last week's parsha (Vayetze) we have the story of the birth of Dina.
Rashi there comments (based on the Medrash) that Leah understood that she
was pregnant with a boy and if she had another boy then Rachel would only
have 1 of the shevatim, therefore she davened and Hashem made a miracle and
turned the baby into a girl, Dina.

In Parshas Vayigash, the Torah writes when it lists the descendents of
Yaakov, "v'es dina bito". Rashi comments (based on the Gemara in Nidda) that
we see that the Torah calls Dina the daughter of Yaakov to show us that the
father is responsible for having a daughter. The Maharsha there asks, what
is the proof from Dina, after all Dina started off as a boy (per the medrash
in Vayetze) and therefore how can any proof be brought from Dina, she turned
into a girl al pi nes? He answers that the Targum Yonason has a different
peshat there. The Targum Yonason says that both Leah and Rachel were
pregnant, Leah was pregnant with Yosef and Rachel with Dina and miraculously
the fetuses were switched. Therefore, Dina was always a girl and the proof
from the pasuk is fine because Yaakov caused Dina to be a girl.

Rashi comments (based on the medrash) on the pasuk "v'shaul ben hac'naanis",
that after what happened with Shechem, Dina made Shimon promise to marry
her. The Tur asks how could Shimon marry Dina? Even Bnei Noach are not
allowed to marry their sister from their mother. The Tur answers based on
the same Targum Yonason that the Yosef and Dina were switched, and
therefore  al pi halacha Leah was not Dina's mother, rather Rachel was, and
a ben noach is allowed to marry his sister from his father.

This Tur however, raises another question, what about Yosef? Who al pi
halacha is considered to be his mother? If it is Leah, then what good was
the miracle? Rachel still ended up with only 1 of the shevatim. Therefore we
need to differentiate and say that both Dina and Yosef were Rachel's
children.

When we consider how the halacha determines who the the mother of a baby is
there are 3 possible alternatives:
1. Whoever conceives the child
2. Wherever the fetus is 40 days after conception (as until then it is
considered maya b'alma and for example you are allowed to daven for the sex
of the child)
3. Whoever gives birth

We see that the Tur cannot hold from 1 because even though Yosef was
conceived by Leah he is considered Rachel's son. The Tur cannot hold from 3
either as the Tur holds that Dina was considered Rachel's daughter even
though Leah gave birth to her. It would seem that the Tur holds like option
2.

With this we can say the following about Yosef. Leah was pregnant with Yosef
but it was before 40 days while Rachel was pregnant with Dina and it was
after 40 days. Therefore when they switched Yosef was less then 40 days so
he was considered Rachel's son as on day 40 he was in Rachel's womb, while
Dina had already passed day 40 in Rachel's womb so she was considered
Rachel's daughter even though Leah gave birth to her.

It turns out according to the Tur that Rachel was the mother of both Dina
and Yosef.

This Tur clearly has ramifications l'halacha with regards to surrogate
mothers etc.
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Message: 7
From: "Jonathan Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:29:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject:
[Avodah] eTIM Rav Conference Notes


Notes on the last two sessions (that's all I could log in for) at the 
Torah In Motion conference on the Legacy of Rav Soloveitchik are up on
my blog, 

http://thanbook.blogspot.com/2006/12/liveblogging-rav-i-david-shatz-rav-and.html

http://thanbook.blogspot.com/2006/12/liveblogging-rav-ii-panel-complexity.html

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com



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Message: 8
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il>
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 23:01:52 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Sinai - Rambam - heard all or nothing?


R. david guttmann wrote:
> The problem that we have is with the "kach vekach" and I believe it
> refers to what they heard from Moshe. In other words when Moshe said to them
> "Kach vekach" they understood that it was coming from hashem.
>
> This is further supported by MN 1:33 where he says" vehu hakol asher hissig
> moshe vechol ysrael mimenu anochi velo yehyeh lecha, ve'hishmiam Moshe et
> zeh bemilim bechituch otyot hanishmaot" in other words they apprehended that
> God told Moshe to tell them something but the content was given by Moshe.
>   
Your approach has one major problem. The Rambam in Yesodei HaTorah is 
asserting that Moshe was validated - not by miracles - but because they 
all heard Gd speaking to him. This point is also made by the Rashba and 
the Ohr HaChaim. If Moshe merely reported what he had heard - there is 
no basis for validation. Similarly the position expressed in Moreh 
Nevuchim  that the people did not hear Gd speaking is criticized by the 
Avodas HaKodesh and the Shaloh for not providing any basis of validiation.

In sum. Yesodei HaTorah says that Moshe was validated by the fact that 
the people heard Gd speaking to him. Moreh Nevuchim says that they 
didn't hear Gd speaking - and thus there was no validation. You are 
asserting that Yesodei HaTorah has to be understood as being consistent 
with Moreh Nevuchim - which destroys any basis for validation of Moshe. 
Thus the problem remains.

Daniel Eidensohn



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Message: 9
From: yzkd@aol.com
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 21:37:01 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Yeshivas Shem voEiver


See Raavad and Kesef Mishne Hil. A"Z 1:3
 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: areivim@sba2.com
To: avodah@lists.aishdas.org
Sent: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 10:09 AM
Subject: [Avodah] Yeshivas Shem voEiver


Besides Yaakov Ovinu, who else studied there??

SBA
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Message: 10
From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:48:33 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] Fw: Yaakov kissing Rachel


From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
> Off list comment:
> the Bnei Yisoschor has a slightly chasidishe pshat about the kiss, that
> when Yaakov saw Rochel, he saw a ''chefetz shel mitzvah'', ie,that he will
> be able to be mekayem the mitzvah of "piryeh verivyeh" - thus when ..
was like kissing a sefer torah- and he was  kissing
> the ''chefzteh" of the mitzvah.  ayin shom.

I was tonight shown where the BY writes about this.
It is in his sefer Derech Pekudecho (P 23/45), where he explains
why the Avos all had wives who were "Yefas Toar".
Also re Avrohom saying to Soroh 'hinei no yodati ki eshes yefas mareh at"
and his sudden concerns re the Mitzrim, etc etc. He also explains the
general 'pliyeh' re Avimelech seeing Yitzchok and Rivka's behaviour
through the window, vechule.

It's worthwhile checking it out.

SBA

PS, I wasn't going to get involved in the 'sex appeal' discussion
on Areivim. However, I notice that the Or Hachaim Hakodesh (Vayetze 29:17)
writes re Rachel "veyefas mareh - shehaya lo chen sheyisaveh lo kol ro'eh".




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Message: 11
From: "Simon Montagu" <simon.montagu@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:34:39 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] Rare Haftarot


On 12/3/06, Ari Meir Brodsky <ari.brodsky@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
>         And if you're curious about how often there are two Shabbatot
> during
> Chanukka, as there are will be year, you can find that as well as other
> Chanukka statistics at:
> http://individual.utoronto.ca/aribrodsky/Chanukka.htm
>

Thank you for the links. As it happens I was wondering over Shabbat: when do
we read the Haftarah of Mikketz, i.e. when is Shabbat Mikketz not during
Hhanukka? I see from your article that this happens in 10.1% of years. When
was the last time? When is the next time?

And further to this: what is the most infrequently read Haftarah? Mikketz?
Pinehhas? Something else?
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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 06:55:47 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Yichud and fostering


On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 11:00:02AM +0000, Dov Kay wrote:
: My wife and I know a young unmarried lady in town who fosters children.
:                                ....  She eventually contacted a dayan in 
: London who permitted the boy to live with our friend for a month until a 
: permanent foster family could be found.

R' Dovid Cohen (Flatbush) who is Ohel's poseiq, is quite meiqil, since
foster care is inherently a she'as hadechaq. In this he follows Rav
Moshe -- the basic din holds, minus every possible qulah.

To possibly tie this into another thread: He holds that child who enters
the home before puberty (regardless of current age) may be kissed and
hugged as one would ones own children.

Given the shortage of frum foster homes, there is strong resemblence to
the gemara's "al tehi tzadiq harbei". The kids aren't  drowning, but
there are souls at stake.

This wasn't lema'aseh for nidon didan, but a number of poseqim (I recall
the Tzitz Eliezer VI, but not whom else) permit treating a child who
entered your home in infancy as one's own child for all of these dinim.
There is a story/legend of RYBS laughing at someone for asking this
she'eilah before adopting a newborn. As his talmidim tell it, RYBS
did so so that the person would have no doubts about the certainty and
lechat-chilah nature of his pesaq.

OTOH, I know from L adoptive parents that the LR pasqened lechumrah
regardless of when the child enters the home.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
micha@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter



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Message: 13
From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <ygbechhofer@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 21:25:03 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Yetzer HoRa Issues


Apropos my essay on the topic of Pinocchio as a paradigm of Jewish 
Education (see http://aishdas.org/rygb/pinny.htm), I have been asked to 
address the fundamental statement made by Chazal (Koheles Rabbah 4:15) 
that is a core issue in the education of high school age students -- 
viz., that while  one is  born with his or her yetzer ho'ra, the yetzer 
ha'tov only begins its development at the age of bar or bas mitzvah. The 
person who asked me to address the question commented that: "This 
assumption has implications for educational practice all across the 
board, including before, during and after bar mitzvah age.  It works 
within a much larger view of moral and religious development that needs 
to be worked through, but has the promise of linking in with a much 
larger vision of Jewish education.  In the world of educational 
psychology, the views that have been offered about moral and religious 
development have turned out to be insufficiently complex and easily 
undermined by empirical research."

 He proceeded to challenge us to achieve a systematic articulation of 
this principle. The specific questions he suggested for a more intensive 
examination were:

1.     What was the deeper basis for the assumption made in Koheles Rabbah?

2.     Do Chazal address this issue in greater detail anywhere else?

3.     Is there consensus regarding the age of thirteen?

4.     Were Abraham's theological musings as a child as reported in the 
Midrashic literature detached from his moral development or did they 
occur after he was thirteen years old?

5.     Is it the same for girls?

6.     What happens at thirteen that makes the yetzer ha'tov come to 
life?  Is it biological? Is it related to sexual development?  Is it social?

7.     Does it happen all at once?

8.     Are there references or works in the tradition that focus in 
depth on the developmental aspects of moral consciousness?

9.     Are there references or works in the tradition that explicate the 
educational implications of this view?


Any conversation on these questions would be very helpful. Thanks!


KT,

YGB

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