Avodah Mailing List

Volume 17 : Number 031

Saturday, May 6 2006

• Re: kitniyos and minhagim
• Re: Aruch Hashulchan vs. Mishna Berura
• reason for spilling wine during haggada
• Who is Jewish?
• Re: spilling of wine
• Anshei Kneses Hagedola
• Re: Korban Pesach
• Re: Korban Pesach
• Re: Spilling out drops of wine at the Seder
• Re: Married with AIDS
• Re: Peanuts
• Re: population of Israel
• Re: Anshei Kneses Hagedola & Generational Transitions
• Re: pronouncing sheimes
• Re: Oseh Shalom
• RE: Spilling out drops of wine at the Seder

>> There are some Aharonim that paskened that when eating Qitniyos you are
>> violating the Lav of Lo Sosur.

> FWIW Chayei Adam iirc states that eating Qitniyos violates "al titisoh
> toras imecha". That makes a LOT more sense than does lo sasur

IIRC, the Maharil says that you (in addition to deserving death) would
violate Lo Sasur, as Qitniyos is a Gezeirah D'rabbanan and not merely a
Minhag. Other (if not most) sources seem to indicate that it is a Minhag,
and thus Al Titosh would apply.

Jacob Farkas

From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> Name examples. This doesn't correlate with my experience. I find the MB
> is more popular where Brisker derekh is. Including all those American
> yeshivos founded by talmidei Slabodka that are not themselves remotely
> Yeshivos Mussar.

Well I can speak for Ner Yisroel in the '60's and '70s - clearly a
mussar-oriented Yeshiva {i.e. Slabodka}. I cannot speak for Ner Yisroel
after that era..
I would assume same would be said for the Chofetz Chaim yeshivas! YU -
a predominantly non-mussar institution - had less devotion to MB and I
would say AhS was slightly more popular.

I cannot speak for Briskers.

I am told that there are chevras in Lakewood that learn MB b'iyyun
gadol inside out and look up sources etc. I would consture that as a
Mussar Yeshiva.

And I might add that my friedn Rabbi Ben Hecht has written something
to the effect that MB reads like a Mussar sefer. I pointe this out to a
chavrusa of mine in Washington Heights and he agreed - and FWIW I would
call him a big devotee of Mussar.

I cannot say for sure what RYBS preferred nor Rav Yerucham Gorelick, but
I would venture to say that they taught more like the Ahs reads than the
MB does. They foccused on usually 2 rishonim to analyze a sugya and did
not attempt to be encylcopedic, and they went into in-depth ddiscussions
of conecepts. Rav Gorelick was somewhat oppposed to Mussar, he said he
tuaght Hashkafa NOT Mussar.

I'll concede that I might not have the facts on this, but I'll stick by my
impressions nevertheless unless there is strong evidence to the contrary.

Kol Tuv
Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com

> Especially if
> the new pshat came out from the "hallowed halls" of the Reform and
> Conservative clergy in the late 1930's. That it has permeated some
> bastions of Orthodoxy (e.g. Ohr Sameach, Aish haTorah, Artscroll) is an
> acute embarrassment.

   That is the reason given by RSZA in the RSZA haggadah. I dont see what's
embarrassing about it. New pshatim are given for things all the time. Or
else no new parsha sefer would ever be written , right?
                                                       MikeW

Back in v17n25, RnLL <lisa@starways.net> wrote:
: I don't understand what you mean. Ovdei avodah zarah are not considered
: "Yisrael". Seder Eliyahu Rabba illustrates "binfol oyivcha al tismach"
: by using the example of a talmid chacham who loses an argument to a
: colleague one day, and the next day, the colleague loses. Jews who go
: to war against Hashem and their own people are clearly a whole different
: ball game.

Not to touch on the thesis, since I feel comfortable with the already
given sources for applying binfol to a non-Jewish enemy...

When do we say an oveid AZ isn't Jewish? The Rambam, in peirush
hamishnayos (the famous bit with the 13 ikkarim), rules out apiqursim,
koferim and minim from "Yisrael" WRT "kol Yisrael yeish lahem cheileq".
Also, stam yeinam.

(BTW, on the Stam Yeinam thread... People who hold my beliefs to be
kefirah should be warned.... R' Herschel Schachter told an audience at
a YU forum (convention?) that we hold like R' Tzevi Peisach Frank and
require mevushal when serving tinoqos shenishbe'u. It seems it's NOT
talui on whether the person is culpable as a kofeir.)

However, when it comes to the lapsed geir (Issurei Bi'ah 13:17) "even
if he revered and oveid AZ, bedhold he is like a Yisrae'l meshumad,
and his qidusin is qidushin, and it's required to return his lost item."
A Yisrael meshumad is yordin velo ma'alin, though still a Yisrael.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

Re: <<maharil says that it seems to him that the reason is to say that
G-d should save us from all these troubles and send them to our enemies.>>

I've been half-following, half-ignoring the thread as it goes back and
forth between pity for our enemies dying to joy at their destruction. But,
the quote above reminded me of a custom I saw once in my youth.

I was at the second day seder in the US at the home of an English Jew,
a Litvak from London. At that seder they did not put their fingers in
the wine glasses as was my family's custom but, at each of the 16 words,
each person delicately poured some wine into his saucer. After b'achav,
the father went around the table and poured the wine from the many
saucers into a single glass.

Just before drinking the second kos, he went out to the next door neighbor
and invited him in to have a drink with us in honor of our holiday. The
neighbor was happy to join us for a drink. I suppose it is not necessary
to mention the nachri was given the cup just used for 'dam va'eish'.

I do not know whether this custom was from London or from a generation
or two before that in Lita. I have never seen it again and wonder if
others have any info.

How long did this institution last? Were its members replaced when
they died? How did it end-bang or whimper?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

RMB wrote:
> ..tells us two things on the pervious amud (93b): Modiin is 15 mil away,
> and derekh rekhokah means "too far to get to the azarah by sunset". A
> time measure. So, I'm lost as to what's going on here. Modiin seems
> to be a time measure, in which case wouldn't we get there in time for
> sheqi'ah is we left Modi'in -- which is 15 mil [space] away -- by horse?

You seem to forget the Torah's measure - derech rechoka - clearly a
distance measure. But how far is it? So far that if you walked at an
average pace all afternoon, you wouldn't make. That's how far. And that's
15 mil.

Akiva

On Thu, May 04, 2006 at 08:21:30AM +0200, Akiva Blum wrote:
: You seem to forget the Torah's measure - derech rechoka - clearly a
: distance measure. But how far is it? So far that if you walked at an
: average pace all afternoon, you wouldn't make. That's how far. And that's
: 15 mil.

R' Aqiva's Modi'in, and the version of R' Eliezer that say the wall of
Y-m, perhaps. But how could R' Eliezer in the mishnah understand "derekh
rechokah" to be distance and still conclude that the shiur is outside
the entrance to the azarah? The Rambam (peirush hamishnayos) concludes
"derekh rechoqah" means (leshitas RE) oneis.

Not distance, but whether one has the opportunity to get there. Sounds
more like time (but still not the same as it).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 21st day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        3 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Tifferes: What is the unifying
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             factor in harmony?

Tue, 2 May 2006 From: "Micha Berger" micha@aishdas.org
> ..., I think we have succeeded in well establishing the Jewishness of
> the idea that we have compassion for the death of even evil people.

> ...So why doesn't "mi shemeracheim al ha'achzarim" apply? Perhaps
> because we aren't talking about ignoring the real need for their
> distruction. Unlike Sha'ul, who inappropriately saved Agag, we are not
> saying the Mitzriyim should have been spared. Rather, that it's sad that
> things had come to this.

Perhaps those who can handle or the mekoros will comment on the
possibility that this is all it amounts to: That the sadness is that
it came to this; that a person or people maliciously so perverted
their tsellem Elokim as to make themselves into monsters deserving
destruction. But once they did so, we revel in Hashem's Justice and
in His saving us (as in Shiras HaYam), and in their destruction (the
feeling of exultation when the bad guys get theirs at the end).

Do the mekoros indicate this?

Zvi Lampel

R Jacob Farkas wrote:
> R' Shmuel Tuvia Stern ZT"L, in his Shu"t HaShavit [volume 8, EH 13] is
> of the opinion that a female condom could be permitted in a case where
> AIDS may be an issue. He discusses the possibility of abstinence as well.

I would think this is a textbook halakhah ve'ein morin kein. Since if
anyone at all thought we were opening this question in general, one
runs the risk of popularizing shichvas zera levatalah where no such
heter exists.

 -mi

From: Jacob Farkas <jfarkas@compufar.com>
> As for the original reason for the issur on kitniyot, the SA Harav says
>> it's because these things are cooked in a porridge ("daisa" / "kashe")
>> just like barley or wheat, and if we eat them then amei ha'aretz will
>> think that all porridges are permitted on Pesach, and only bread is
>> forbidden.

> That may work for rice, buckwheat and millet. But not for all Qitniyos
> items on the list. Others are Assur because they are grown in close
> proximity to wheat, or because they can be turned into flour.

The new Sefer Minhag Avoseinu b'yadeinu on page 424 cites 5 reasons in 
the Rishonim for kitniyyos:
1)  Due to Chimutz (Ba'al Haminhaggos}
2) Due to concern of mixed in Wheat {Rokei'ach}
3) Becuase Kitniyyos flour resembles wheat flour.  {hagahos hasmak}
4) Because eating Kitniyyos lacks simchas Yom Tov  {rabbinu Mano'ach - 
iirc D. Speber ran with this one}
5) Because the sorups ot "Vitzash" resemble Kitniyyos {Rabeinu Mano'ach 
#2}

note that rice has its own unique halachos and Minhaggim

Kol Tuv
Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com

Rn Lisa Liel wrote:
> So... should we make a list of dinim that are different because of it?
> We could probably start with prosbul going away, no?

Well, shemitah deOraisa depends on yoveil deOraisa. Especially if we
hold that the year of Yoveil is not part of any cycle, so we have to
switch from a 7 year shemittah cycle, to a 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th, 35th,
42nd and 49th years of a 50 year cycle.

Which in turn requires knowing which year shemittah should be. The
50th from when Israel obtains that rov? Would we rely on our current
calendar to compute yoveil from a known yoveil during bayis rishon --
and is there a known yoveil?

It would not only kill pruzbul, but also heter mechirah (qarqa, not the
alternative to ribis).

Next, what about Sanhedrin? It would no longer be an issue of a qiyum
asei, but we would be oveir a lav deOraisa if it's possible to have
a beis din hagadol and we don't. And that in turn could enable having
geirei toshav.

 -mi

 -- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 21st day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        3 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Tifferes: What is the unifying
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             factor in harmony?

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> How long did this institution last? Were its members replaced when
> they died? How did it end-bang or whimper?

I think it petered out. I don't know how many generations it lasted,
it all depends upon the dating of Shimon Hatzaddik which is probably a
PhD thesis in and of istelf.

Now to ansewr this question - here is a possible brand new thread:

What "ends" an era and beings a new one?

For example, were the Students of Rebbe - R. Yehudah hanassi -Tannaim
until the day he died? Or did they continue as Tannaim until the entire
generation that LEARNED from rebbe died?

So for example, if Ezra strarted a Beis din, it might have been in
place until all of the original members who were UNDER Ezra died out.
And anyone serving with a Talmid of Ezra, might have sat on the last of
the Anshei Knesses hagdolah

Illustration: Ezra keeps up the institution by replacing members
throughout his lifetime. His students, continue serving on the remnant
until alll of them die out. The juniors who did not see Ezra are not
real replacements, jsut supplemental members and as soon as the last
talmid of Ezra dies the insitution is gone, but some junior colleagues
survive that insitution.

Now go back to the Z'keinim who survived Yehoshua - who were they? or
better: WHEN were they?

My answer: anyone who survived Yehoshua that was an EYE-WITNESS to Moshe
Rabbeinu, or even possibly jsut to Yeshoshua, was grandfathered in as
a Zakken. As long as the eyewitnesses to Moshe/Yehosua were alive,
they kept the people in check.

Now any Tanna that learned under the LAST full Tanna - namely Rebbe -
was still a Tanna or quasi Tanna - e.g. Rav.

Another example: Any Amora that was an eye-witness to Rav Ashi was still
considered an Amora even if Rav Ashi was so ho'ra'ah because they - as
overlapping contemporaries - reamin grandfatherd in. But no one AFTER
the death of Rav Ashi can ever acheive that status.

That's my read of how generations go through transitional eras.

Kol Tuv
Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com

T613K@aol.com wrote:
> In many zemiros, half-pesukim and fragments of pesukim are woven into
> the poetry.
> Should they therefore not be sung with the Shem Hashem? Well, I suppose
> you could say that those quoted fragments have been transfigured into
> something else by being incorporated into poetry. Could you not say
> something similar about their use in the fixed text of the Hagada?

The quoted fragments were turned into a matbei'ah tefillah, even
if recently. The lyrics of zemiros/pizmonim are prayer no less than
(other) piyutim, no? OTOH, the majority of maggid (up to the beginning of
Hallel, probably excluding Dayeinu) isn't tefillah, but talmud Torah. We
"simply" standardized a minimum annual chazarah that guarantees qiyum
hamitzvah according to all the tannaim. Maggid is like shas, not E-lokai
netzor. This distinction was the whole point of the original post.

Therefore, the portions of pesuqim in maggid really should be treated
just as parts of pesuqim one utters when learning in other contexts.
If your husband says Hashem's name when reading a partial quote of
a pasuq in the gemara, then it would be appopriate to do so at the
seider. Otherwise, I can't see the justification.

 -mi

 -- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 21st day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        3 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Tifferes: What is the unifying
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             factor in harmony?

From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
>> The OH also brings a nusach - IIRC - Machzor [or Siddur] Roma - that
>> indeed does not include the 'Ve'imru Omein' at the end of SE.

> Machzor Livorno has "oseh shalom bimromav, hu berachamav yaaseh shalom
> alenu ve'al kol yisrael, amen".

See Baer's Avodas Yisroel on this matter. I posted on this thread
year's ago. Baer posits "v'imru Amen" is impored from Kaddish, just
plain Omein OTOH works ok.

Kol Tuv
Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com

On May 4, 2006, Zvi Lampel wrote:
> Perhaps those who can handle or the mekoros will comment on the
> possibility that this is all it amounts to: That the sadness is that
> it came to this; that a person or people maliciously so perverted
> their tsellem Elokim as to make themselves into monsters deserving
> destruction. But once they did so, we revel in Hashem's Justice and
> in His saving us (as in Shiras HaYam), and in their destruction (the
> feeling of exultation when the bad guys get theirs at the end).

> Do the mekoros indicate this?

I feel the mekoros reveal that having compassion for the death of evil
people is a decidedly un-Jewish attitude. I haven't been following Avodah
for a couple of weeks so some of this might have been written already.

The pasuk in Tehilim (58) states: 'Yismach tzadik ki chazah nakam,
pi'amav yirchatz bi'dam rasha' (a tzadik shall rejoice when he witnesses
the recompense [against the wicked], and bathe his feet in the blood of
the rasha).

IMO, the Jewish view is that we love whoever Hashem loves and hate whoever
he hates. And Hashem loves (frum) Jews and hates rishaim as the pasuk in
Malachi states "va'ohav es Yaakov vi'ess Eisaav sa'ney'see". Consequently,
we rejoice at the mapala of rishaim. In fact, the Medrash states that
Dovid composed 120 mizmorim but was not chosem with haliluya until
he foresaw the downfall of the evil as it states 'yitamu chataim min
ha'aretz' etc." MR Vayikra 4:7 (Don't ask from Berurya - She was enjoining
R' Meir to change rishaim into tzadikim and if this is at all possible,
why not? But we are talking about the downfall of people who were wicked
to the end and what our attitude should be regarding this downfall)

As the subject line implies, someone probably mentioned the pshat that
we spill wine out of the cup to symbolize our distress at the mapala of
rishaim but this simply doesn't make sense. When we were in mitzrayim,
do you think we bemoaned the fate of the mitryim as their land, culture
and finally they themselves were destroyed in less than a year? Of course
not. The makkos were like "shmaltz in our bones". Revenge against the evil
people who took our children and threw them in the Nile River. Revenge
against the people who enslaved us with cruel labour for over a hundred
years.

Revenge is a tremendous mida when used by Hashem. The Gemara in Berachos
states "how great is nikama, for it is flanked by two shemos of Hashem
(El nikamos Hashem). Rav Dessler notes that the two shemos El and Havaya
are both shemos of rachamim. From here we see that nikama is essentially
an expression of rachamim. The biggest rachamim Hashem can do for His
people, indeed for all mankind, is to cause them to be aware of His
presence. When rishaim prosper, it interferes with this awareness. When
Hashem takes revenge against the wicked, his kavod is re-asserted. The
word nikama comes from the same shoresh as hakama, IOW, the hakamas
hakavod, the raising up in our minds of Hashem's honour which was nifgam
by the actions of rishaim.

This is why when the malachim wanted to say shira, Hashem stopped
them and said "Ma'aseh yadai tov'im bayam vi'atem omrim shira"? OTOH,
the greatest expression of ecstasy ever invented was sung by the Jews
upon seeing "sus v'rochbo ramah va'yam". The reason for this contrast
is that malachim are not affected by the actions of rishaim. Their
estimation of Hashem's greatness is never compromised by the activity
of the evil just as we, lihavdil, would not be insulted by the barking
of a dog. Thus, they cannot relate to the kiddush Hashem inherent in
the mida of nikama. All they see is "ma'aseh yadai tov'im bayam". All
they see is a potential tzelem Elokim going li'ibud and thus shira,
for them, is inappropriate. OTOH, for us, not only is it appropriate,
it is a mitzvah to rejoice at the mapalasam shel rishaim.

Rav Dessler has a beautiful shtikel which ties in to all this. The
Tanna Di'bey Eliyahu Zuta (19) states as follows: At the end of days,
the malachim come before Hashem to say Shira but they can't find Him
so they start looking around. They approach the Yam Suf but the Yam Suf
responds, 'from the day He dried me up and led His children across me,
I haven't seen Him. So they approach Sinai but Sinai responds 'from
the day he revealed Himself on my mountaintop and gave the Torah to his
children, I haven't seen Him'. So they approach Zion but Zion responds
'from the day he removed His shechina from me and destroyed His house,
I haven't seen Him' Yeshya haNavi turns to the malachim and asks, 'who
are you looking for', and they respond, 'Hashem'. So Yeshaya informs them
'he just went out of Edom' as the pasuk (in Yeshaya) states, 'mi zeh ba
me'edom chamutz bigadim mibatzra'

The Medrash of R' Moshe haDarshan adds as follows: What do the words
mi zeh signify? In the future, Hashem will go out to take revenge
against Edom, he Himself, and will not reveal His travelling plans to
the malachim. The malachim will attempt to say shira before Hashem but
will be unable to find Him so they approach the Yam Suf etc.

Now the question is, why will Hashem bidavka keep his plans hidden from
the malachim? And why can they not find Hashem? After all, isn't it miloh
kol haAretz kivodo? The teretz is just as we were saying before. Nikama
is not shayach to Hashem mitzido because He is not nifgam by the chataim
of rishaim. However, we are and therefore just as we perceive a chilul
Hashem in the actions of the wicked, so too, we experience the Kiddush
Hashem in the revenge against them.

This is why Hashem will not reveal His final plans to the malachim
because they too are not nifgam by the chataim of the wicked and thus
they cannot be masig the Kiddush Hashem which manifests itself through
nikama. And when the malachim will want to say shira (in other words,
fulfill their mission of teaching the world about the inyan of shira)
they will attempt to say shira through the old bechinos of Yam, Sinai,
and Zion etc. But this will not be the ultimate praise of Hashem because
after He revealed Himself in these bechinos, he consequently was mastir
Himself through the churban and through galus and thus, at the end of
days, nikama will be the vehicle by which Hashem will re-appear once
again. And this is why the malachim ask about the "place" of Hashem,
in other words, they want to know mikom chalos giluy kivodo so they can
praise Him. And they finally ask Yeshaya and he answers them that from
the bechina of olam haAsiya, there is a musag referred to down here as
nikama which is the source of the Kiddush Hashem at the end of days and
this is where the chalos of his giluy haKavod lies.

Good Shabbos
Simcha Coffer

*********************


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