Avodah Mailing List

Volume 10 : Number 020

Friday, October 4 2002

• YomTov Garbage Removal
• Havdalla candle on Yomtov SheBeMmoztei Shabbos
• hashanos
• RE: travelling on Sukkot
• Re: Birchat kohanim/hoshanot/ naanuim
• Re: hashanos
• Re: Birchat kohanim/hoshanot/ naanuim
• Re: travelling on Sukkot
• RE: travelling on Sukkot
• RE: travelling on Sukkot
• traveling on sukkot
• eating in/out of a sukkah
• Eating bread (was "Chol HaMoed Sukkos Eating bread in an airplane ")
• the rav's mussar
• R Y Weinberg and REB-article in Edah Journal
• RE: Eating bread (was "Chol HaMoed Sukkos Eating bread in an airplane")
• Re: Eating bread (was "Chol HaMoed Sukkos Eating bread in an airplane ")
• Kol Hatorah Journal
• Re: Birchat kohanim/hoshanot/ naanuim
• Re: NAAR/NAARAH
• Re: Why teach the other opinions
• Re: Kiddush on Leyl Simchat Torah
• Inquiry
• Re: Why teach the other opinions

> (* I wrote "seem" because R' Bodner does not bring the exact example
> of torn wrappers, but I think it is comparable to what he writes about
> torn clothing or broken dishes.

> I would also suggest that an empty but UNtorn potato chip bag is still
> useful and does not become muktzeh until it is discarded.)

I would beg to differ. Unless it is a well known fact that an empty untorn
potato chip bag has a definite alternative Shabbos use, it becomes muktzeh
even before it hits the garbage can.

However plastic 2 liter soda bottles once finished are often used for
storing cold water. So presumably they would not be muktzeh.

Daniel

Why not just light two matches immediately before Borei Morei HaAish,
hold them briefly together for the brocha and fingernail inspection and
then place them carefully on a plate so that your action does not cause
them to immediately extinguish.

<It's also not limited to nusachei Sepharad and "Sfard". It's also
minhag haGra, which is why RCS noted it's the norm in Israel. And rapidly
becoming the norm on this side of the puddle as well.>

In Bnai Yeshurun in Teaneck Rabbi Gordon changed Hashanot to after
Hallel. the present rabbi Prozansky changed it back to after Musaf.
I believe he said in the name of RYBS that in the bet hamikdash it
ccurred after Musaf and so that is its proper place

--
 Eli Turkel, turkel@math.tau.ac.il on 10/03/2002

R' Moshe Feldman <<< While I agree that most people are not kovea on
bread, many people often eat mezonos at meals. >>>

True, but it would have to be *over* a k'beitzah to make a nafka amina.
And rice doesn't count.

[Email #2. -mi]

I asked <<< Why didn't he say something like "But a practical solution
is to go, but not be kovea seudah on hamotzi or mezonos"? >>>

R' Carl Sherer answered <<< This is why I suggested that Rav Moshe may not
have meant "assur" as in "it's assur to turn on lights on Shabbos." But
he may have meant "assur" so as to avoid the slippery slope... >>>

That's the sort of thinking that got Adam and Chava into trouble. I wish
the poskim would be more explicit and say exactly what they're trying
to say.

RCS: <<< He also may have said it because of the issue of sleeping in
the Succah -- which is a real issue here in Eretz Yisrael... >>>

RAL, maybe, since the focus was on the youth groups. But not RMF; if
that were the issue it would not apply to day trips {how often does one
nap at Great Adventure?] and he makes no such distinction.

I wrote <<< Let us say that when the traveler is going for a mitzvah,
he is allowed to eat hamotzi outside the sukkah, but for an optional
tiyul he must restrict himself to other foods. >>>

RCS: <<< How are you defining "optional tiyul?" There are people on
this list who have gone so far as to make a "tiyul" a fulfillment of
oneg Yom Tov. >>>

However the posek chooses to define it. RMF and RAL seem to have a
slightly different view on it, and there could easily be others too. My
point was that regardless of where a particular posek chooses to draw
the line, those who are on the mitzvah side of it have the heter of
Holchei Drachim and can be kovea seudah and sleep outside the sukkah,
while those who are going for optional purposes can only eat seudas
arai, and can sleep outside the sukkah only in those areas which have
a general p'tur even for people at home. The net result, as I see it,
is that NO ONE can be told that the mitzvah of sukkah is preventing them
from going on any kind of trip.

RCS: <<< While that may be, I would argue that one should nevertheless
not do it if by doing so one will not be m'kayem the mitzva of Succa,
particularly where there are other forms of Oneg Yom Tov available
(whether a different tiyul or a different activity). >>>

"Should not" is a very different thing than "may not". Don't confuse
them. I am only addressing what we may do and may not do.

Sukkah and Simcha Yom Tov are not the only two issues involved, and
in order to properly evaluate the various options, one needs a fine
sense of the degree to which they are required / encouraged / allowed /
discouraged / forbidden.

I wrote <<< Even on Chol Hamoed, if I went out of my way to have bread
at breakfast, I see absolutely no reason to go out of my way to have
any at lunch. >>>

RCS: <<< I'm with you. On the other hand, for several years now, I have
actually tried to be m'kayem (bli neder!) fourteen seudos in the Succah
during Succos (2 per day for seven days as per the mishna). >>>

Likewise, though I'm far less successful than I used to be. Anyway,
that's exactly why I said "lunch". Dinner (depending on the time) is
the next day.

Akiva Miller

From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
>: It seems that it is not uncommon that nusach ashkenaz shuls switch
>: during the week to hoshanot after hallel but continue the nussaf minhag
>: on yom tov (and perhaps Hoshanna Rabbah). The prevailing reason is tircha
>: dtzibburah of unholstering the lulav and esrog twice.

> Isn't there also the desire not to take the Torah out more often than
> necessary?

Eh?
The minyonim here that do nussach sfard - still return the Sefer Torah-
to the Aron hakodesh - thus necessitating the Torah to be taken out
again - anyway.

BTW our nussach Ashkenaz minyonim continue to do Hoshanos after Mussaf -
[we Ob's don't introduce change - for reasons of convenience...]

SBA

In a message dated 10/3/02 1:48:54pm EDT, turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:
<< In Bnai Yeshurun in Teaneck Rabbi Gordon changed Hashanot to after
Hallel. the present rabbi Prozansky changed it back to after Musaf.
I believe he said in the name of RYBS that in the bet hamikdash it
occurred after Musaf and so that is its proper place >>

And on what basis did either of them change an established minhag(ie
was it a minhag taut or shtut?)

KT
Joel Rich

>>>Again, I believe it's neither, but a kavod haTorah issue. We do not
take sifrei Torah out of the aron more often than necessary.>>>

How does doing hoshanos immediately after hallel minimize the times that
we take out the Torah? In our shul, after hoshanos, the sifrei Torah
are returned to the aron, the chazzan says kaddish, and then we take
out the Torah a second time. So either way (hoshanos after hallel or
after musaf), the sifrei Torah are removed two times.

>>>As for time or convenience, when I am in a shul which does have
hoshanos at the end, I hold my esrog and lulav from hallel until
hoshanos....>>>

Even during the silent shemona esrei?

KT
Aryeh

Aryeh Stein wrote in the name of R' Tuvia Goldstein:
>In the times of the SA [and the MB?], bread and similar
>products were a staple of everyone's diet, and, therefore,
>a traveler was allowed to eat bread/mezonos outside of
>a sukkah.  Nowadays, when many people can go a long
>time without eating such food, and because there are so
>many filling foods that are available to the modern traveler
>that do not require a sukkah, a traveler should limit his
>food intake to those foods that do not require a sukkah.

R' Mordechai Willig argues this position also in his Am Mordechai
(or perhaps it was in a Beis Yitzchak article). This is certainly a
chiddush, and not one that I've often seen argued halachah lema'aseh.
But I certainly hear the sevara (and see the diyuk in the Rosh).

My impression is that most poskim follow what the Shulchan Aruch and
poskim write, i.e. anything from the five grains must be eaten in the
sukkah and everything else is a recommended chumra. But don't rely on me.

Gil Student

>>>If that's where this thread came from, then I'm not sure how relevant
Hershey Park is -- because there are gigantic sukkahs in which to eat!>>> 

Over the course of Yom Tov, I had the opportunity to discuss this topic
with my friends/relatives.  After I argued my point (that a reading of the
SA and MB seems to clearly indicate that a person traveling is patur from
sukkah), my brother told me that he heard b'shem R' Tuvia Goldstein
("RTG") (a talmid of R' Moshe, IIRC) that nowadays the halacha is
different.

In the times of the SA [and the MB?], bread and similar products were a
staple of everyone's diet, and, therefore, a traveler was allowed to eat
bread/mezonos outside of a sukkah.  Nowadays, when many people can go a
long time without eating such food, and because there are so many filling
foods that are available to the modern traveler that do not require a
sukkah, a traveler should limit his food intake to those foods that do not
require a sukkah.

Now, I don't know what the exact language that RTG used (nor do I know his
phone number, although I can't imagine that it is that difficult to
determine (RTG is the RY of Yeshivas Emek Halacha in NY), but it seems
that he was talking halachah and not hashkafah.

In my defense, I stated that I was arguing my point solely from the POV of
the SA and MB and that I was largely ignorant of what contempory poskim
said about the matter (due to the fact that I have never (to my knowledge)
eaten bread/mezonos outside of a sukkah on Sukkos and that I was never
arguing halacha l'ma'aseh) as R' Gil made clear in one of his earlier
posts.

My brother took his family to Orlando for Chol Hamoed and they did not eat
bread/mezonos outside of a sukkah during their trip.  My sister-in-law
made "shehakol cake" (using potato starch) for them to eat during their
trip (giving new meaning to the tes-vav/tes-vav gezera shava....), and
they took along a portable sukkah on the plane (not the pop-up kind but
the kind that fits in a very large/long duffel bag.)

Turning my attention to Hershey Park, over Yom Tov, one of my shul's
baalebatim gave a shiur in which he asserted that, since travelers are
patur from sukkah, those people who go to Hershey Park on chol hamoed do
not have to eat in Hershey Park's sukkahs and that, if they do, they
should _not_ make the bracha of leshev b'sukkah.  Upon hearing this, some
attendees of this shiur went to ask our LOIR (i.e., local orthodox interim
rabbi) and our LOIR said that this was (obviously) 100% wrong.

And once I am posting about sukkos, I may as well add that my family ate
in the sukkah on simchas torah (day and night) (which sparked the
perennial debate among my chaverim about whether we were violating ba'al
tosif).  I think we have discussed this in the past on this forum as well,
so there is probably no need to discuss it again.  Let me just say that we
didn't eat in the sukkah for the sake of the mitzva of sukkah, but merely
because of the great convenience of eating in my parents 10' x 32' sukkah
instead of squishing everyone inside the house.

KT
Aryeh    

From: kennethgmiller@juno.com [mailto:kennethgmiller@juno.com]
> Personal note: Because the Mechaber puts this spin on it, praising the
> one who avoids drinking outside the sukkah, for many years 
> (when my job
> was a good 15-20 minute drive from the nearest sukkah) I would allow
> myself to get moderately thirsty and hungry before caving in to eat or
> drink some shehakol at the office, but would not allow it to become a
> real interference with my simchas yom tov. 

I don't see the point of such a practice. If you're going to eat outside
of the succah anyway, what's the difference whether you take 10 gulps
in a row, vs. 5 + 5. And it did cramp your simchas yom tov somewhat.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

personally, i think that the "olam" here has exhausted the issue of
traveling on Sukkos, but i would like to add a few comments.

firstly, i have to agree with carl (and rav lichtenstein) regarding the
question of intentionally avoided the "sukka experience". what message
are we sending to our families, or better, to the ribbono shel olam!,
if we choose to avoid the performance of a mitzva, on chag hasukkos!
chazal's holkhe derachim, as rashi points out, were traveling from
city to city for business, or to fulfill another mitzva of mekabel
pene rabo. it doesn't seem that they were taking leave of pumpbadisa
in order to admire the beauty of other areas of bavel! while i am in
no way minimizing the value of a "tiyul" (which RMF did!), i think we
should maintain a little perspective. especially if the only sacrifice
if having a salami (better than yogurt) instead of bread!

secondly, gil student (a long lost classmate and roomate) wrote, "the
mitzvah to live in the sukkah is "ke'ein taduru" and not to spend 24
hours a day in the sukkah. The mitzvah is not just to eat in the sukkah
(or to eat and sleep in the sukkah) but to live in the sukkah and that
allows leaving the sukkah just like one leaves one's house."

that is true. but the gemara also says that one should be "shone umetayel
basukka" - i.e.the gemara implies that even one who barely sees his
house during the year, should spend more time in the sukka. it should
be the center of one's experience during sukkos. some even explain that
the notion of "aseh sukascha keva" IS a mitzva chiyuvis, despite that
there is no formal requirement to eat in the sukka.

thirdly, i have a hunch that part of the debate here is related to the
location of the "chevra". sukkos seems to be a chag designed for life in
erets yisrael. my memories of america are of waiting for it to rain so we
could go out to the Chinese restaurant! in E"Y, the climate is condusive
to eating, sleeping and living in the sukka. and many do. i'm not sure
that that's true in america. additionally, in ny, many don;t even have
sukkos, and barely make it to a sukka during chol hamoed. (don't take
that as a criticism). the experiential difference between america and
E"Y may be playing a role in this debate.

david brofsky
alon shvut

>>>As long as I can remember, all my teachers and seforim have told me
that one who wishes to go all week without a sukkah may do so, as long
as he avoids those sort of meals which require a sukkah.>>>

Right. But that includes _any_ fixed meal, does it not?

-- Sholom

>>>Are you not thereby being mevatel the d'orisa mitzvah of benching in
precisely the same way as those being discussed use travelling to avail
themselves of the ptur relating to sukkah, or wearing non four cornered
garments to avail themselves of the ptur relating to tzitzis>>>

I think avoiding eating bread to avoid having to bentch should not be
called being "mevatel the d'orisa mitzvah of benching." There is an
"inyan" in purposely eating foods other than bread if one feels that he
will not be able to bench with the proper kavanah. I remember reading
that R' YZ Segal of Manchester would sometimes skip his morning bread if
he felt that he would not be able to bench with the proper kavanah. R'
MM Weiss also recommended this eitzah in one of his books. (This reminds
me of what is brought down in the Elef Hamagen in the Mateh Ephraim
when discussing the seudah hamafsekes on Erev YK. He mentions that,
in reality, one should have more kavanah during benching than during
shemona esrei, as benching is d'orisa and shemona esrei (as opposed to
tefilah in general) is d'rabanan.

This brings me to a related item. On one hand (especially when dealing
with children, although this certainly applies to adults as well), the
advantage to washing and eating bread before a meal is that the kids
don't have to worry about making separate berachos on the different
foods. The disadvantage of this is that this means that the kids will
have to bench, which most kids (and some/many/most adults?) want to
avoid like the plague.

I know of some families that try to have the best of both worlds by
having their kids wash, make hamotzi on a small piece of bread and making
sure that they eat less than a kezayis of bread. Thus, they don't have
to make separate berachos on each of the foods eaten during the meal,
and they don't have to bench.

My question: Is this a legitimate "eitzah"? L'chatchilah? B'dieved?

KT
Aryeh

true. maybe the rav's writings are antithetical to the classical
style of mussar. yet, let us not forget that many, if not most, of
the deepest, most personally revealing, and inspiring (in my opinion)
portrayals of avodas Hashem written in the last century, are to be found
in the writings of the rav and rav kook. there is no parallel among the
writings of the other gedolim and roshe yeshiva. their rare religious
honesty and intensity continue to inspire many, including myself, and
whether they are technically considered "baale mussar" or not is somewhat
academic. their profound spiritual reflections should be required reading
for all aspiring ovde Hashem.

david brofsky
alon shvut

Fascinating view of the world of rabbanus at or about the time of its
authorship. Let's put aside the pilpul about the use of such a letter
in a sefer or other documents such as an article. My query is whether
the same letter would be written today by RYW. Comments?

Steve Brizel
Zeliglaw@aol.com

From: Stein, Aryeh [mailto:AStein@wtplaw.com]
> I know of some families that try to have the best of both worlds by
> having their kids wash, make hamotzi on a small piece of 
> bread and making
> sure that they eat less than a kezayis of bread. Thus, they don't have
> to make separate berachos on each of the foods eaten during the meal,
> and they don't have to bench.

On a practical note: if they eat a kezayis of pas ha'ba'a b'kisnin during the
meal (not as dessert), they would have to bench according to the Magen
Avraham.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Stein, Aryeh wrote:
> I know of some families that try to have the best of both worlds by
> having their kids wash, make hamotzi on a small piece of bread and making
> sure that they eat less than a kezayis of bread. Thus, they don't have
> to make separate berachos on each of the foods eaten during the meal,
> and they don't have to bench.

> My question: Is this a legitimate "eitzah"? L'chatchilah? B'dieved?

no.

see Igros Moshe OC 4:41.

The latest edition of the Kol Hatorah Journal published by the European
(ie British) Agudah has arrived here. It has almost 600 pages and
includes sections devoted to Rav Chaim Shmuelevich z'l and Rav AZ Gurewitz
z'l RY Gateshead.

It includes Chidushei Torah, Pilpul, Halocho,Agodo, Mchsovo etc. as well
as a unique section called Kovetz Simchas Torah - which has a Ha'oroh on
every daf of Daf Yomi to be studied the next 6 months. They have been
publishing this journal in this style for some time - 2 issues a year.

Subscription in the US (4 issues) is $25 - from Levy,
2168 83rd Street Brooklyn NY 11214 (Tel. 718 331 1297)

2 pieces that caught my eye...

A Tshuva by Rav YA Dunner shlita re a mispallel at the Itzkowitz Shul
in BB whose car was blocked in by 3 cars belonging to the taxi company
across the road, whose drivers refused to move when asked.

Our Mispalel then went to a nearby public phone and called the taxi
company- ordering 3 taxis to 3 addresses. The taxis then departed to
respond to these hoax calls and he was free to drive off.

The question is  - is he mechuyev to pay for these wasted taxi trips?

His answer?
If the taxis had no right to be standing where they were (eg
double-parking) then he is potur to pay. However, if they were parked
legally - and for some reason he couldn't get out - then he must reimburse
the drivers...

And a nice pshat from Rav Chaim Shmuel Schmahl of London explaining
 the Rashi (from the Midrash) in Mikeitz, "Veshom Itonu Naar Ivri...
- Naar - Shoteh..."

The question is obvious. How could the Sar Hamashkim describe Yosef
Hatzadik as a 'Shoteh'??? He was 17 years old when sold off to Potifar
and there became his CEO and even when later in jail - he was put in
charge of that too. He correctly was 'poser cholom' for Paroy's 2
'sorim' and was in fact now recommending him to explain the king's
dreams - after all Paroy's Chachomim and magicians couldn't! Such an
outstanding and amazing person he labels a 'Shoteh'???

However, explains RCSS, in the eyes of the Sar Hamashkim, Yosef was indeed
a shoteh... Why? Prisoners in jail, obviously discuss the reasons for
their incarceration. When Yosef Hhatzadik was asked what he was there
for, he replied t hat for a year his masters wife had tried everything
to seduce him - day and night and he refused. Even on that fateful day
when there was no one else at home, he resisited the temptaion... Well,
no doubt for any Mitzri - a citizen of 'ervas ho'oretz', such a person
is obviously a complete fool - a 'shoteh'...

RCSS adds - that the title 'shoteh' is in fact medukdek...going by the
Chazal "Mutev li lehikorei shoteh kol yomai velo liosos sho'o achas rosho
lifnei Hamokom..." - which Yosef was mekayem and mekabel upon himself.

(Someone showed me that the SR z'l also asks teh above questions and
basically explains [as has been mentioned here previously] that many
consider one who is frummer than themself - a meshugenner...)

Shlomo B Abeles

In a message dated 10/03/2002 4:53:25pm EDT, AStein@wtplaw.com writes:
>> As for time or convenience, when I am in a shul which does have
>> hoshanos at the end, I hold my esrog and lulav from hallel until
>> hoshanos....
 
> Even during the silent shemona esrei?
 
My pet peeve-people ignoring chazarat hashatz and unhoolstering all their 
paraphanalia.

KT
Joel

I found what I was looking for in a Chidushei haRamban on Chullin daf
5a. The Ramban states about Rivka "...she'hayta osah maaseh naarut"
even though she was under 3 years of age.

Josh

In a message dated 10/2/2002 12:08:53 PM EDT, kennethgmiller@juno.com writes:
> Yes indeed. And here we are in this thread, trying to recognize and
> define that process, and winnow out the differences which separate the
> Samaritans and Karaites from the Mayim Acharonim and Megilas Taanis.
> OTOH, I think we'll all (pretty much) agree that (to paraphrase Justice
> Stewart), "we know it when we see it".

Here is one angle

What do people who consider themselves stictly Observant observe -
even if we know that in reality they are less than 100% compliant.

Illustration. Many poskim either prefer or insist upon Duchaning on
YomTov shechal beShabbos. My shul relies upon its old minhag and does not
duchan. Even if we were all to concede that we SHOULD duchan on Shabbos,
our deviation is construed as abiding to a principle of preserving
a Minhag - even though many might deem it a flawed Minhag. So even
though we MIGHT be considered as deviating from Halachah in practice,
their is no question that we consider ourselves loyal to the process.

So the deviation has to be sincere, even when mistaken, or based upon
a flawed premise etc.

If the deviation is out of a sense of definance, then it could be on
the slipery slope leading to being a mumar ledavar echad....


I'll give another much more controversial example

A Tshuvah went out in the 1950's allowing Microphones on Shabbos.
Many shuls relied upon this Tshuvah. R. Moshe F. rejected the Tshuvah AND
furthermore claimed that anyone relying upon said Tshuvah was a mumar...

WADR to RMF who was the poseik hador, I must disagree. You cannot claim
a khal or tzibbur is a Mumar when they sincerely relied upon a psak even
though the psak might have been legitimately flawed. All you can do is
exhort them not to rely upon the Psak.

Now if those shuls stopped relying upon the psak and did Tshuvah fine,
and if they then tried to re-introduce the faulty psak afterwards THEN you
could have a case for Mumar. But Sincerly relying upon the status quo can
IMHO never be worse than an honest error and not be construed as Mumar.

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe
RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com

RYEllis:
> gabbai makes kiddush after the first hakafa (and this year, havdala as
> well), after which people eat mezonot and drink beverages. This is done,
> presumably because hakafot are not over until after 11 PM and people get
> very hungry and thirsty in the meantime. Does anyone know of a halachic
> source for this practice? Most of the people did not eat their Yom Tov
> seudah at the location of hakafot. So it comes down to (I think): can
> we apply the heter of kiddush bemakom seudah with mezonos and not bread
> (that is used by many on Shabbos day) to a derabanan yom tov for the
> kiddush at night?

See SSKH vol 2 pp 178-9 (n. 72) who says that this works even Friday
night and that one should not make another kiddush when one gets home
to eat a bread meal.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld (www.BlackBerry.net)

[Moderator's note:

I recieved the following request. Please remember to CC the author, as
I couldn't find the author's name in our subscriber's list.

-mi]

I am seeking information regarding an open letter to Agudath Israel
that Rav Tzvi Yehudah Hakohen Kook zt"l published in Or Hamizrach,
Elul 5714. A copy of the letter is [at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/perudim.pdf> -mi]. I would be
grateful for any information concerning the events and circumstances to
which Rav Tzvi Yehudah refers, as well as information concerning any reply
made or action taken by Agudath Israel or its representatives in reaction
to the letter. If you don't have any information on this, but know of
someone who might, please forward this inquiry to him or her. Thank you.

Kol tuv,
DN

On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 09:49:33PM -0400, RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com wrote:
:> This is Solomon Schechter's Catholic Israel [CI] problem again. It's
:> fully circular. You take one minor example, I took a big one.
...
:> And, as I said the first time we raised the CI issue, the reasonable
:> way out is to posit constitutional law that is NOT open to consensus.
...
:>: So if Poseik A paskens AND it gets accepted by a community or a range
:>: of Communities over a period of time, it is reliable.

:> So if JTSA has a community that observes C rules, those rules are valid?

: By your reasoning any rabbi that devieates from a given "NORM"
: Such as Bavli or Shulchan Aruch 
: is by defintion non-Observant too

Not at all! I'm kind of surprised you don't "get" my position after dozens
of posts on this subject.

Textualism is also a process. Saying we rely on the sefarim to
evaluate minhag, rather than making the mimetic the final arbiter,
doesn't eliminate change -- it increases it! (Look at minhagei haGra,
chassidus or even RSRH's Frankfurt!)

My objection was that your mimetic-only definition, with no process,
includes communities whose ideal offers us no opportunity for limud
zechus. That either you can't get there from here or there is a record
as to how the "ruling" came about, and the given justification isn't
valid halachic process.

Such as many CLJS responsa. The JTSA community, even if observant,
is observant of something we don't call halachah.

Minhag as final arbiter as only means that only the community defines din,
and only din defines which community we're talking about -- circular.

A mimetic subset of that which can be supported textually gives you a
bottom to the recursion. However, I could include in CI not only those
who follow solutions within the text, but those who are trying to.
Which is why limud zechus could include proving it's an honest mistake.

: And many C rabbis will point out that O rabbis have stepped on many rules and 
: therefore they are not Observant etc., and therefore O's use circular 
: reasoning too

But they're wrong. O hasn't changed the rules of pesaq.

Or, to put things less absolutist: anything I consider O is a community
that did not -- in my and my poseiq's opinion -- violate the rules.

The question isn't one of an objective definition. Like any othger
complex issue of pesaq, there won't be a single answer. It will
instead be one of by what grounds should an individual (with his LOR,
of course) decide for himself who to consider as within the pale.

: addenda
: you can argue that any rabbi that does not sit in the Sukka on Shmini
: Atzeres is ipso facto non-observant

Why? Need I say that this change was done outside the system?

Similarly for the rest of your examples.

: The process of "dropping it" is itself quite controversial
: Model 1) Circumstances changed and the underlying Halachah is no longer
: applicable

But that's legit. See our earlier discussions of the Rambam and the
Tif'eres Yisrael on Edios 1:4-6.

There are, for the Nth time, legitimate means of change.

: Model 2) Some Communities were NEVER noheig like the Bavli due to other
: sources, Masoros or subsequent psakkim/takkaons/Gazeiros.

Again, that's legit.

And would exclude JTSA's C-observant community.

: Model 3) New Gzeiros overrode circumstances. EG too much chillul
: YomtTov led to ignoring the original din of burying on Yom Tov

New chumros? What's the question even! Qadeish es atzmekha bemah
shemutar lakh.

On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 11:00:56PM -0400, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: <<< I am asserting that there is halachic process, that results obtained
: by means other than that process is recognizable. If not in some absolute
: way, it's still a matter about which a poseiq can rule upon for his
: community.>>>

: Yes indeed. And here we are in this thread, trying to recognize and
: define that process...

That's beyond the scope of any thread. But we've attempted it anyway --
albeit not on this thread. This thread is more about the relationship
between formal and informal processes. The discussions of pesaq and
Hilchos Mamrim pereq 2 and Ediyos 1 and so on are more to the point of
the formal rules of how pesaq can be changed.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

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