Avodah Mailing List

Volume 07 : Number 002

Monday, March 26 2001

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 23:03:56 +0000
From: Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>
Re: Starting Shmoneh Esrai Before The Deadline In Question

In message , Noah S. Rothstein <noahrothstein@mindspring.com> writes
>This isn't really l'maaseh because I asked a choshuve poseik years ago
>about whether to say birkas krias shema after z'man tefilah, b'dieved,
>and was told that I should. However, I know that there are those who are
>machmir not to say birkas krias shema after z'man tefilah, even b'dieved
>and I am curious about what I asked just above.

Robert (my husband) follows the shitta (as ikkar hadin) that you do not
say birchas krias shema after z'man tephilla (there are two shittos, the
one Robert follows is that you say them without shem or malchus the
other is that you do not say them at all).  However, he has also been
told that, bidieved, if he started yotze or then he can finish the
brochas with shem and malchus.

I assume that all Sephardim hold that you cannot say birchas krias shema
after sof zman tephilla, because it is explicit in the Shulchan Aruch
(Orech Chaim Siman 58 si'if 6).  Apparently the Ben Ish Chai in Rav
Poelim (chelek 2, orech chaim, siman 12 - but I haven't seen this
inside) allowed them to be said up to chatzos, so it may be that some
people rely on this, but apparently he retracted in Od Yosef Chai
(parshas vayera ois 17).

>Finally, purely out of curiosity as we obviously do not pasken this way
>at all, are there shitos that forbid saying birkas krias shema after
>z'man krias shema

Only Rav Hisda in the first loshon of the gemara (Brochas 10b) and that
was refuted (t'yufta d'rav Hisda t'yufta).

In general the issues are as follows:

A) the Mishna in Brachos 9b brings the opinion of R' Yehoshua that krias
shema can be said until the third hour "v'hakoreh m'kan v'elech lo
hefsed k'adam hakoreh b'torah".  The gemorra then explains on 10b that
lo hefsed means not to lose its brachos.  The question is, does this not
losing of its brachos mean a) for one further hour (ie until the end of
the fourth hour) b) until chatzos; or c) all day.  The reasoning for a)
is until the end of sof zman tephila of Rabbi Yehuda, the reasoning for
b) is until the end of sof zman tefila of the Rabbanan and the reason
for c) would seem to be because, at least according to the Rambam, the
original (ie d'orisa) time for krias shema was all day. However we do
not seem (either Ashkenazim or Sephardim) to follow the Rambam and say
the whole day, rather the brochas are linked to the machlokus regarding
tefilla (the Rosh inter alia says this explicitly, that the brochas are
not really linked to krias shema but to tefilla).

B) Rav Chai Gaon is brought by the Beis Yosef as poskening like a)
including that if you say the brochas after that you are over on lo tisa
and the Mechaber would seem to follow this position.  

C) Remember that the fundamental machlokus between Ashkenazim and
Sephardim over brochas stems from whether or not you hold that saying a
bracha l'vatala is a vadai issur d'orisa (Sephardi position) or the
reference to the posuk is merely an asmachta (Ashkenazi position) ie the
issur is only rabbinic.  Depending on which way you hold, the question
of what you do in safek situations follows the general rules, d'orisa
l'chumra, d'rabbanan l'kula.  In this case, if we have a safek as to
whether to follow Rabbi Yehuda or the Rabbanan on sof zman tefila which
impacts on whether or not we should say brachas that we would otherwise
not say we would expect (as seems to be the case) that the Sephardim
would go l'chumra and take the more limited shiur (ie Rabbi Yehuda and
hence limit the saying of these brochas to four hours) while the
Ashkenazim would go l'kula (ie until chatzos).


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Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:31:20 -0600
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Fwd: Challa and Chabad/Shabbos

More on Challah:

It requires more thought to develop this to a full blown discourse, but:

Bikkurim, first fruit, Chochmo - Reishis Chochmo Yiras Hashem - 
Undifferentiated Knowledge.
         (The Maharal calls this a Nesina to HKB"H from that which is not 
 yet murkav - corresponding to the Olam of Seichel - 
 undifferentiated   hashpo'oh - Chochmo.)

Ma'asros, multiple separations and distinctions, Bina, Categorization and 
Classification of Knowledge.
         (The Maharal calls this a Nesina to HKB"H from that which is a 
 harkava shichnis - a non-complex combination - the Olam of 
 Galgalim,     - or, I believe, Malachim - i.e., where hashpo'os are 
 already distinct - Bina.)

Challah, from a finished product that is complex and complete, Da'as - the 
chibbur of Chochmao and Bina (Widsom  - there is a  Chazal "Yosif Da'as 
Yosif Mach'ov - when a child can eat bread he is considered to have Da'as).
         (The Maharal calls this a Nesina to HKB"H from that which is a 
 harkava mizgis - a complex combination - the Olam ha'Tachton -   already 
 developed, and, of course, the water in the dough - Torah - is an 
 integral part of Da'as.)

As to Se'udos Shabbos, this requires a lot more work, but Friday night is 
Chakal Tapuchin Kaddishin - an orchard - corresponds to Bikkurim (also, 
Yitzchok and Yiroh). Shabbos morning is Attikah Kadisha - corresponds to 
Challah (Mattan Torah - "Lechu Lachmu b''achmi" (also Avrohom - first 
mention of bread in the Torah, I believe, Va'yeira - and Ahavah). Shabbos 
afternoon is Ze'eir Anpin - corresponds to Ma'asros (given to Lev'im and 
brought to Yerushalayim - connecting Elyonim and Tachtonim (also Ya'akov - 
"aser a'asrenu lach", and given in Chu"l - and Tiferes). As I said, more 
work is necessary.

BTW, one can do something with Challah - gematriya 43, and its shiur - 43 
and one fifth k'beitzim.

ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

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