Avodah Mailing List

Volume 06 : Number 126

Wednesday, February 14 2001

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:11:47 -0500
From: "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
RE: Erev Pesach sheHal beShabbat

From: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer [mailto:frimea@mail.biu.ac.il]
> All hametz, not needed for
> Shabbat meals, should be sold, removed or burned before Friday morning
> 10:23 AM.  

I haven't reviewed Hilchos Pesach yet.  What is the reason that there is
some kind of zman biyur on Friday, if the real zman biyur is on Shabbos?

Kol tuv,

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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:34:41 -0500
From: "Wolpoe, Richard" <Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com>
RE: Erev Pesach sheHal beShabbat

R' Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer:
> C) Matzah Ashirah (Matzah made without water using fruit juice or eggs)

One caveat.

Breuer's KAJ uses Grape Juice Matza as Matza Ashira because Egg Matza might
not be deemed Matza Ashira according to the Rambam 

Rich Wolpoe

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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:25:49 EST
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Re: Kaddish after aleinu

Micha Berger:
> With the added idea, borrowed from R' Akiva, that a son's tefillos could
> help the g'zar din of a father who is niftar. Perhaps that explains the
> shift from "bor'chu" to qaddish -- the story is only being brought to
> show that the son's tefillos help, not which tefillah....

Did it ever bother you why that neshama didn't just ask R' Akiva to say
kaddish for him? There must be something about the father son relationship
or else why did he bother (unless the goal was to change the son as well!)


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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:30:32 EST
From: Joelirich@aol.com

The MB brings down 2 times to give 1. prior 2. in vayivarech david.
The second is based on the ari z'L. The M"A brings down the second but
mentions that the ari z'l would give at that time even if he wasn't up
to that tfila but the tzibbur was.

Any ideas on why the MB didn't quote directly? The Artscroll mentions that
2. is based on david's having said this after puttingf aside provisions
for bet mikdash. Does anyone know the source for this statement.

lastly does anyone know of a source for giving tzedaka during chazarat
hashatz - it seems similar to giving during kriat hatora, which is


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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:14:04 -0500
From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
Re: Midrash About Birds

I wrote:
> This past week, both of my school-age children came home with arts & 
> crafts having to do with birds and parashah sheets saying that 
> Dosson and Avirom spread out "mun" on Shabbos to trick the Yidden 
> but birds came and ate up the "mun"....

R. Moshe Schapiro was kind enough to find for me the source, or rather lack 

> I saw in the Sefer ha-Matamim (Warsaw 5609 - 1849) under the heading of 
> Shabbos os beis: The reason for the minhag etc (he quotes the bird thing and 
> Dasan and Aviram) and he says it's in the Yalkut.

> Rav Kasher continues "see Sefer Minhage Yeshurun p. 134 and Sefer Taame 
> ha-Minhagim os 34. See Magen Avraham 324:7 and Tosefes Shabbos s"k 17. 
> Then he says "behold the quotation in the name of the yalkut i have not 
> found."

Gil Student

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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:15:30 -0500
From: "E. Hoffmann" <hoffmann@centtel.com>
Purim Sheilah

[This is from another list I'm on]

I am looking for T'shuvos on various topics on the mitzvos of Purim.  The
questions I am specifically looking at are how we do mishlo'ach manos
today (many try to do group baskets through organizations) or giving
matanos la'evyonim in another time zone, or meanings of "ad d'lo yadah"?
I know that there was an RJJ article a number of years ago (which I now
cannot find).

Any suggestions?

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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:10:54 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
RE: Erev Pesach sheHal beShabbat

On 13 Feb 2001, at 11:11, Feldman, Mark wrote:
> I haven't reviewed Hilchos Pesach yet.  What is the reason that there
> is some kind of zman biyur on Friday, if the real zman biyur is on
> Shabbos?

I think it's lo plug so you shouldn't come to make a mistake next 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:03:31 -0500
From: "Markowitz, Chaim" <CMarkowitz@scor.com>
Warming food on Shabbat

From: "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
> Query: if one has a plata with only one temperature and it would not be
> derech bishul to cook on that surface, is the plata considered similar to
> cooking on a radiator (not al gabei ha'aish)? 

Rav Moshe (chelek 4 Siman 74-the one with the teshuvos to Rav Eider) mattirs
this case in the following situation. 1) The hot plate has no dials so you
can't change the temperature 2) The food is already cooked 3) It is not
possible to cook on this hot plate-only warm things up 4) By liquids it must
be somewhat hot (Hot enough that a person who wishes to eat hot food
considers it hot) and by solids it could be cold.

(If I made any mistakes in the above please correct me)

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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:23:26 -0500
From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
Re: tzedaka/tfila

Joel Rich wrote:
> The Artscroll mentions that 2. is based on david's having said this 
> after puttingf aside provisions for bet mikdash. Does anyone know the 
> source for this statement.
Divrei HaYamim 1 ch. 29

Gil Student

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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:58:56 +0200
From: "S. Goldstein" <goldstin@netvision.net.il>
This year's Pesach

To the great Pesach calendar-halacha guide I would like to add:

Thursday night after bedika, bitul chametz is said--Mishnah Brurah 444:1

Shlomo Goldstein

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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:08:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Shaleshudos and: K'SheChal Erev Pesach B'Shabbos

On 11 Feb 01, at 11:33, Harry Maryles wrote:
>                                     The procedure is as follows: one
> seperates the first meal (Second Shabbos meal), into two distinct meals
> with a slight break between them. One washes, eats, Bentches (says the
> Grace after meals), waits, and then washes again and then eats the third
> meal. This procedure enables one to eat the third meal with bread (with
> Lechem Mishneh) which is the most ideal way of performing the Mitzvah.

From: Joelirich@aol.com
>Daven Mincha in between? (I seem to remember al piKabbala (though I'm
>not at Roseanne Barr's madreiga yet :-) that shalosh seudot was to be
>after mincha

L'Chatchila one should Daven Mincha first and is mentioned by the
SA in the name of the Rambam and the Tur. One ism stillyotze Seuda
Shlishis before Davening Mincha as long as it is eaten after MiShesh
Shaos U'Mechtza Ul'Malah. Interestingly, there is a Yesh Omrim mentioned
by the Rama that states that one is not permitted to drink even water
between Mincha and Maariv on Shabbos because this is the period that the
Neshamos return to Gehinom, and therefore Seuda Shlishis should not be
eaten then either. In any case, this is not our Minhag.

With regards to Erev Pesach SheChal Lehios B'Shabbos we cannot have Pas
and daven mincha as that would be after the Zman of issur Achilas Chametz,
So wedo the beast we can.

By eating both Seudos in the morning, we can have our Pas and eat it
too... sort of.

From: "Wolpoe, Richard" <Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com>
>Why not just frely upon the Remo and minei targima bizman and therefore
>1) Be yotzei s'eudah shlishis bizman
>2) Eat the Seder be'teiavon
>3) Not scramble around trying to avoid extra brachos??>

Indeed one CAN rely on Minei Targima as I stated but then you still
have a B'Dieved. Nothing is stopping you from doing that anyway. But
the ideal cannot be fulfilled. You either losse one aspect or the other.

>If shechitas korban Pesach is docheh shabbos, why can't our seder be
>enough of an impetus to forfeit the inyan of lechem Mishan for Se'uadah

The very nature of being Docheh something is that you are "pushing
off' a Halachic, even Torah requirement. In the case of Lechem Mishneh
by Shaleshudes, it is not a REQUIREMENT to eat Lechem Mishne, only a
"Lichatchila". There is no such thingas being Docheh a L'Chathila.

From: Eric Simon <erics@radix.net>
> It is my understanding that R Shimon bar Yochai would substitute Torah
> study for the Shaleshudos on erev Pesach.  (I have been told, but have not
> looked up: Zohar 3:95a; M"A 444:2 in the name of Shaloh)  I also understand
> that some have used this analysis to do the same on other shabboses.

I too did not look up the original source but quoted it second hand from
"Torah L'Daas". But I have heard it said in the name of R. Chaim that he
used to actually eat Shaleshudes. When asked why he didn't substitute one
of his Shtiklach Torah he answered that "I'm not sure about my Shtickle
Torah but a Shtickle fish is a shtickle fish."

[Perhaps RSM can do us a favor, and ask R' Matis Blum, the mechabeir of
Torah Loda'as, for us. -mi]


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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:16:21 -0500
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Re: Kaddish and R' Akiva's dream

On Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:48:40PM +0200, D. and E-H. Bannett wrote to Areivim:
: R" Micha commented:  <<It's a story in the gemara, even if added late in the 
: game...>>
: Is it in the gemara? Mar'eh makom please...

You are right, it isn't. The medrash can be found in:
    - Tana diVei Eliyahu Zuta, ch. 17
    - Medrash on parashas Yisro (in the Asseres Hadibros)
    - Kallah Rabusa, ch. 2
    - Midrash Ruth Hane'elam
    - Zohar Ruth Hachadash
    - Zohar Chadash, Parshas Lech Lecha (according to the "Or Zarua`")
    - Zohar, Parshas Achrei Mos (according to the "Beis Yosef")

:                                            I remember hearing and seeing that 
: kaddish is not mentioned in the gemara at all but only yehei sh'meih raba
: and yehei : sh'mo ha-gadol.

But most version of the story are about teaching the son "Bor'chu".


Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

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