Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 197

Saturday, December 18 1999

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:32:55 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Brochos 57a

In a message dated 12/17/99 10:04:19 AM EST, writes:

> I agree 100%.  R. Yitzchok Zirkind, however, explained to me his
>  understanding which is that since the gemara says "lo hirher ba
>  mei'ursa" we are to understand that this machshava was in fact NOT a
>  yetzer for the person.  Since the gemara says that dreams are our
>  "hirhurei lev" this "s'tirah" implies that this is not a regular dream,
>  but rather a siman; that siman is that he is a ben olam haba (I hope I
>  did justice to his pshat).

Yes you did thank you! (just to restress that Lhalacha O"C 288 a dream which 
comes after Hirhur by day is not a Simon Min Hashomayim).

>  I think that is a very interesting approach,
>  but, IMHO, not the pashtus.  Firstly, I think there is a difference
>  between "hirher ba mei'ursa"- which I believe implies consciously, and
>  continuously thinking about her- and "hirhurei lev" which are more
>  "subconscious" or suppressed thoughts.  Therefore I don't think there is
>  a s'tirah between the ma'amarim.

1) the Gemara would not have to Bavorin a Hirhur Haleiv, as it would make no 
sense to say that doing an Aveiroh of Hihiur Haleiv in an Ervoh by day 
causing a dream by night would be a Simon of Olom Haboh (Bnosof that it is 
the Issur of "Vinishmartah Mikal Davar Rah").

2) the Gemara adds here "Vloi Yoda Lah" he doesn't know who she is (implies 
no possible hirhur), as I compared this Loshon to Taanis 5b Byod'oh Umakiroh.

>  Also, why would that s'tirah (if it
>  exists) be a siman of olam haba (all of the other dreams in that gemara
>  have p'sukim that explain their meaning)?  

Rashi explains that it is a Simon that he will get his share and his freinds 
share "D'domi Leishes Ish". 

The problem I have with the Pshat you quoted is, that it doesn't belong in 
this sugia, where we are talking about "Pisron" Chaloimois based on the 
particulars of the dream, (also why Davkoh Eishes Ish what about a Niddah or 
any Ervoh or MZ etc).

Gut Shabbos V'kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:35:30 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Lo Sosuru

In a message dated 12/17/99 10:04:19 AM EST, eisenman@umich.edu writes:

> I do appreciate RYZ pointing out, however, that according to the Rambam
>  and Chinuch the pasuk does in fact create an issur machshava, and is not
>  simply a warning against a course of action and statement of fact. The
>  Chinuch, however, does phrase the issur almost like a gezeira d'oraisa,
>  since machshava meivi li'ydei ma'aseh, analogous to the way Avos D'Rabbi
>  Noson understands "lo sik'rvu." 

IMHO the Rambam would hold that the Ramban's Naval Bireshus Hatorah, may not 
even be Birshus Hatorah.

Gut Shabbos, V'kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:05:54 EST
From: MIKE38CT@aol.com

Although I don't drink much mysef, I personally don't have a problem with 
someone consuming reasonable amounts of alcohol at a kiddush or a simcha, 
even in front of children. 

What I do have a problem with is the drunkenness and inappropriate behavior 
on Purim and Simchat Torah, which seems (at least to my eyes) to be 
increasing in frequency within our communities.  That's the real concern I 
have, in terms of what example we are setting for our kids.  And it's not 
only that...talk to the doctors and nurses at Maimonides Hospital and other 
hospitals within frum communities, and they will tell you that the number of 
people who come in with alcohol related problems on Purim and Simchat Torah 
is enormous.  Many people are actually causing injury and potential harm to 
themselves by drinking too much.  I'm not a rabbi, but I'm certain that these 
occurrences go far beyond what our rabbis had in mind with "ad d'lo yada".  

In addition, I'm curious about the practice of consuming large amounts of 
alcohol on Simchat Torah.  When did this practice begin?  And could one make 
a case that it shouldn't be allowed at all because it actually interferes 
with the mitzvah of simchat yom yov? 

Michael Feldstein 

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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:08:10 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Re[2]: Yetzer Ha'Ra for MZ

My guess at this historical revolution was that the inner YHwas not conquered in
the '50's it  was repressed! And then that repression led to an explosive 
reaction to the "pressure cooker"

As ba;lie Nefesh the trick is not to repress the YH i is to transcend it via 
kedusha, insight, spirtiuality, lofty ideals and inspiring thinking. Machshov 
about Torah and HKBH, and seeing the YH for what it is.

Hiding and repession work only in the short run.  In the long run we need a more
pnemiyos approach.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
This is largely IMHO due to the society which has 
evolved from the "permissive" era of the Sixties and 
the Baby Boom generation of which, I am a "not so 
proud" member. Mine is the generation  of "make love 
not war" and "if it feels good, do it".  This 
ultimately evolved into the "Me-ism" of the seventies 
and the re-examination by the APA and re-definition of 
MZ as normative (alternativre lifestyle), rather than 
abnormal behavior.  

The influence of my generation is most felt and 
foisted upon society in the entertainment industry 
which perpetuates the "myth" and condems more 
traditional views of sexuality.  This has been a 
highly destructive force in all of society (AIDS being 
a direct result of increased promiscuity and 
acceptance thereof) and Judasim in particular.  We in 
the orthodox community are not immune to those 
influences whether we have TV,s or not. That is one of 
(but only - ONE OF) the reasons that their are so many 
"at risk" children today.  They are vulnerable to a 
more sexually permissive society that exposes them to 
Sex, Drugs, and all manner of depravity, and labels it 
OK as aa alternative lifestyle.



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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:41:08 -0500
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>

From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: Avodah V4 #148 Consumption
<< What about a silver esrog pushke?  Hidur? Or extravagant waste of

	Hard to see why the box could be a hidur-it is not used in the mitzvah
as the $2000 tefilin would be,  but davka when you are not doing the
mitzvah.  Either way,  I don't see why a hidur can't be an extravagant
waste of money at the same time.  Hidur is ad shlish:  how much does a
cardboard esrog box cost?
<<What about a silver Atarah for you Talis?>>

	I was told that this is why the Litvaks don't wear a silver atara,  as
it is a hidur on the beged but not on the mitzvas tzitzis.  The Gemara's
lashon,  however,  is talis na'eh.

<< What about an expensive Kesubah executerd by an artist/caligrapher as
a piece of art?  Hiddur? Extravagance?>>

	I think doing an expensive shtar mechira/pruzbul/other shtaros,  for
your chometz is equally a "hidur";  The only shtar that comes to mind
that is a mitzvah is,  under certain circumstances,   a get. Haven't seen
a calligraphed one yet, though,  maybe because they're cut up right away?

<<How many of us have any of the above?  Should we sell them and give the
money to education?>>

	Hark,  I hear a takono <g>


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:03:08 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

AFAIK the problem is NOT
Money - weath

Wealth didn't deter R. Yehuda haNossi and poverty  didn't deter Hillel; 
Rather the ikkar is to stay focused upon the ikkar which is our Avodas Hashem 

lemoshol, it's not what suit/dress you wear TO shul that counts.
Rather it's how you daven AT shul that counts

R. Gorelick used to give us numerous mesholim on this:
EG, here's a joke he told us about hypohetical missionaries and their church:
     Missionaries:  We are making progress with the natives.
     Church:        Have they stopped being cannibals yet?
     Missionaries:  No, but we have taught them to eat with forks and knives!

Rich Wolpoe  

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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:40:00 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Mechiras Chometz - Redux

David Herskovic wrote:  <<

And Pruzbel is only one example. There is mekhiras khomets, heter iske, 
eyruv which all create fictional halakhic entities to solve seemingly 
insuperable problems.  >>

Mechiras Chametz may be a legal workaround, but I don't think it can properly be
called a legal fiction.  The sale is very real. 

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick<<

Indeed the sale was ALWAYS real.  The "problem" is really concerning the 
buy-back - this is the chidush-part that is controversial.  I think the Gro or 
someone else said they refrrained from Mehciras chometz UNLESS it was "olamis" -
i.e. permanent.

Btw, the Gemoro has a "workaround" for mamzerius, too as I vaguely recall it's 
in the 4th perek of Kiddushin. 

Rich Wolpoe

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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:49:44 -0500
From: gil.student@citicorp.com
Re: Mechiras Chometz

RN Witty wrote:

>>Second, why would the general principle of "chatzee xhiur assur min 
haTorah" not apply.>>

Chatzi shiur only applies to things that are chazi le'izterufei - possible 
to be combined to create a full shiur.  For example, if I eat half a 
kezayis of chametz on Pesach and then eat another half within kedei achilas 
peras (2-9 minutes) it is considered one eating and I have eaten one 
kezayis instead of two half kezaysim.  There is no equivalent for the issur 
of bal yera'eh.  If I have half a kezayis of chametz in one pocket and 
another half in my other pocket I have two half kezaysim, not one kezayis.  
The topic of chatzi shiur in general and chazi le'izterufei in particular 
have a whole literature on them.  The Chacham Tzvi writes that chatzi shiur 
only applies to issurei achilah while others, of course, disagree.

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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:51:41 -0500
From: gil.student@citicorp.com
Yirmiyahu and the Greeks

I remember seeing the philosophers among the rishonim claim that Yirmiyahu 
met Socrates (or Aristotle?).  I tried getting the dates to match using 
both "frum" chronology and secular dating but couldn't make the numbers 
match.  Would anyone like to try?

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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:21:17 -0500
From: Michael.Frankel@dtra.mil
Re: Slonimer Yichus

still catching up. RRW asked about sources for Slonimer rebbes.  these are
readily available in a variety of places. two which immediately spring to
mind are Efrati's geneological encylopedia "Hachasidut", and - though i
haven't checked it out, i'm sure the encylopedia judaica would have it as
well.  you could probably look it up under the name of the first slonimer
rebbe whose name was R' Avrohom. (but better spell it r. abraham if looking
in EJ).

Mechy Frankel				W: (703) 325-1277
michael.frankel@dtra.mil		H: (301) 593-3949

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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:14:38 -0500
From: Michael.Frankel@dtra.mil
Re: Silent vs Aspirated HAY in middle of Word

RMB writes:
<.Gil Student <gil.student@citicorp.com> comments:
:                                     I seem to remember that in the Mishnas

: HaGra, printed in the back of the little blue Otzar Sifrei HaGra, there is

: a different opinion.  In fact, I think that it says that both HAYS and 
: CHETS are exceptions and are never silent in the middle of a word.
Think about it. If a hei and ches were both silent even if only with a sh'va
nach, how would you know leehyos (usually mispronounced "liheeyos") from
leechyos?- -mi>

i have kept out of this interaction, partly because i've been out of town a
lot, but also because i wasn't sure that my quick readings of back issues
had properly captured the writers' intents.  e.g. i have been confused by
the various poster employments for silent vs non-silent letters vs shivohs,
so much so that i'm not even sure whether i disagree with posters such as
RRHendel or not.  but since this last post has at last stirred me to respond
i shall briefly comment inter alia about the other matters as well.

1. silent letters:  silent letters do not have anything to do with shivohs,
of whatever flavor.  they have everything to do with whether any
vowelization appears at all. i.e. no vowel=silent letter and leaves the word
pronounced as though the letter were simply not there at all, after the
paradigm of Ruvain, spelled with a "silent" aleph. this has nothing at all
to do with "unpronounced' shivoh nochs.

2. a shivoh noh under a letter does make it pronounced, in theory as an
"ultra" short vowel (ultra being the descriptive modifier of choice amongst
the professional grammarians who seem creatively incapable of other than
mimicing each other's taxonomical adjectives).  A shivoh noch is not
"pronounced" in the same sense - but that doesn't mean the letter it is is
under is silent. it is not.  when the shivoh noch appears under a hey, as in
"ki'mah'peichas", that hey is indeed "pronounced", i.e a mappiq, or "brought
out",  hey.  in exactly the same sense that the shin with a shivoh noch in
the word "mishpot" is a "pronounced", not silent, letter.  

3. As to a shivoh under a hey in the middle of a word. quite simply there is
a standing disagreement, but not ligabei any 'silence".  there are those who
are argue that every shivoh under hey in mid word is necessarily a shivoh
noch. leaving every such hey pronounced as in "ki'mah'peichas' above, i.e.
every midword hey is a mappiq hey (and thus doesn't need a distinguishing
dot to mark the mappiq).  others (me too) disagree and recognize the
potential existence of shivoh nohs in the middle of words.  which finally
brings us to our esteemed moderator's example.

4.  He writes: <how would you know leehyos (usually mispronounced
"liheeyos")>  R. Micha would seem of the all-midword-shivohs-are-noch
persuasion.  In any event, despite his unqualified assertion re the
"mispronounced liheeyos" there are those of us who think precisely that,
i.e. that the shivoh under that hey is indeed a noh.  as to the potential
"problem" of closing the preceeding short chiriq vowel under the lamed,
which would ordinarily lead you to conclude that the following shivoh, in
the absence of the here impossible to deploy dogeish chozoq, must be noch,
we would simply note that the word lihiyos(not quite but almost) always
deploys a meseg following the chiriq, legnthening it sufficiently to allow
the following noh.  while this may all be debatable - certainly there is no
uniformity of opinion on the purpose of every meseg - the situation is from
from the settled closed case the moderator's assertion, and ( at least i
think)  some other posters have implied.

Mechy Frankel				W: (703) 325-1277
michael.frankel@dtra.mil		H: (301) 593-3949

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Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 00:30:24 +1100
From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject: Problem Kids

An interesting item from this week's (US) Yated Ne'eman

Machon Tiferes Bachurim-A Successful Answer to a Troubling Issue
by Rabbi Nosson Scherman

        The beginning of a solution to the pressing problem of dropouts is at hand
in Machon Tiferes Bachurim, a new Torah institution in Monsey, New York,
that is having phenomenal success in its first several months of operation.
Catering to a small enrollment of 17-21 year-olds, Tiferes Bachurim is
giving its Talmidim a new lease on life, by making learning interesting and
exciting, removing boredom from the school day, providing state-of-the-art
training in computer electronics, and offering a staff of skilled,
interested, and devoted Mechanchim.
        Rabbi Shammai Blobstein, Menahel of the Machon, is enormously popular with
the boys. He says, "I'm excited as they are. We are 'turning them on' to
Gemara and other limudim, and they are 'turning us on' to themselves. This
is a good bunch of Bochurim who are now finding out that they really can
make it if they are given half a chance. And we are giving them a lot more
than half a chance."
        Rabbi Blobstein is well known for understanding college age teens.
According to Mr. Shmuel Freedman, founder of Machon Tiferes Bachurim, "I
can't tell you how fortunate we were to get Rabbi Blobstein. Many Gedolei
Yisroel encouraged me to start this institution, but they all said that the
key to our success would be getting the right man to run it. When people
heard that Rabbi Blobstein had agreed to come aboard, they said we would
have Hatzlacha. They were absolutely right!"
        The second rebbe is Rabbi Tzvi Rosenthal, who made his name as Menahel of
the West Side Kollel. He has the "touch" and the sensitivity that have made
him very popular and effective with his talmidim. This is especially
important in an institution where the one-on-one relationship is
        The schedule of the school gives an idea of its imaginative philosophy.
Rabbi Blobstein knows the reason for many lack of success and is able to
provide a solution.
        The day begins with Shacharis and Halachah, then breakfast followed by
Mussar. The morning Gemara program of two-and-a-quarter hours, consists of
units: 20 minutes of shiur and 10 minutes of chazarah. This regimen is
repeated for the full seder. It maintains interest, prevents boredom, and
affords talmidim constant opportunities to catch up and build their
self-image to realize their potential. Not to mention the opportunity it
gives the Rebbayim for constant interaction with the Talmidim. After lunch,
there is Chumash and Bekiyus.
        The afternoon is for vocational training in a separate class within the
modern, excellently equipped facilities of the Rockland County BOCES. The
boys who need it are being prepared to receive a High School Equivalency
Diploma. Then they will join their buddies at the computer electronics
course. The course work is fascinating and challenging, and in today's
cyber-economy, it puts them on a fast track for steady employment at good pay.
        After supper, it's Mishnayos and Novi, Chazarah with a Rebbi or specially
recruited people from the community, and then swimming or basketball.
        The Rebbayim are usually back in the dorm for informal "shmoozing" before
bedtime. Fortunately, it's a friendly, relaxed environment that nearly all
boys crave, but not enough have had in their formative years.
        Machon Tiferes Bachurim is already making a major impact on its Talmidim,
literally transforming their lives. Its success may well set the pattern
for other much needed institutions that will stem the hemorrhage of good
boys from the Torah community and end the anguish of parents who are
torturing themselves with that most painful of questions: "Where did we go
        Shmuel Freedman, founder of the Machon, is performing a heroic service for
the community. Neglecting his own business for the thankless and
frustrating task of raising funds for the institution, he says, "I am
anxious to see the Orthodox philanthropist jumping forward to address the
needs of Machon. It's very hard, but when I see the progress of the boys
and the devotion of the Rebbayim, it's worth it. Most of all, its really
saving lives-of the Talmidim and their parents!"

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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:31:59 -0800 (PST)
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
RE: Minors and kiddush wine

--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > 
> > combinede to de-mystify alchol and actually make
> it LESS 
> > likely to become abused
> Rabbi Dr. Twersky would probably argue on that point
> very strongly.

C'mon. What ever happened to common sense?  How many
people make kiddush on Friday night over wine?  How
many give their kids a sip?  How many of those kids
are alcoholic?  Can Dr. Twersky really be opposed to

Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
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