Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 173

Friday, December 10 1999

• RE: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re: Re[2]: Is it on the Level
• Re[2]: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re: Mesaye'a
• Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re: Re[2]: co-opting music
• Re: Re[2]: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re: Mesaye'a
• RCA pre-nup
• Re: Mesaye'a
• RE: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• poverty
• Agunos
• Re: Mesaye'a
• co-opting music -- more halakhic sources
• prenups, lawyers, and Bach
• correction
• Mesaye'a
• Hazzanim and the mimetic tradition

I just re-read my original post and it made no sense
due to a major typo.  Below, for those who care, is a
corrected version.

HM

From Freda Birnbaum:

> > If "they" can solve the problem re interest on
> > loans, "they" can solve
> > this one.  This one is not only ruining women's
> > lives, it's destroying
> > unborn generations -- all those babies not being
> > born because those who
> > would have been their mothers can't remarry.  If
> you
> > don't care about the
> > women, at least care about the population
> increase.
> > 
> > If you're not able to be part of the solution, at
> > least don't defend an
> > unjust system, or say that it's impossible to fix
> > it.  The very least I'd
> > expect from a "Torah" person is that he understand
> > that there is a
> > problem!!

My corrected response:
 
 If the "they" in the above post is reffering to the
 Gedolei HaDor, it boggles my mind to think that
 there
 is so little regard for the ability of Gedolei HaDor
 to have compassion. Can it be possible that people
 who
 have devoted their lives struggling with every
 detail
 of what they believe to be G-d's will are so
 uncaring
 about thaeir fellow man. I DON'T THINK SO! It would
 be
 tantamount to saying that G-d Himself, doesn't care,
 because ultimately this is what our Gedolim are
 grappling with.
 
 The phrase often touted by the Ortho-femme's is:
 "When
 there is a rabbinic will there is a Rabbinic way."
 Well, I'm sorry the Torah is not that malleable. 
 Suppose all of Klal Israel decided to worship Avodah
 Zarah.  Should the Rabbis find a rabbinc way? 
 Pretty ridiculous, Huh?
 
 There are just some things we just can't do anything
 about. That doesn't mean that the Agunah issue is
 unresolveable, it just means that as of yet we
 haven't figured out how, in a way that is acceptable 
 to Torah Law.
 
 We need to work on that.
 
 There are plenty of areas where we can "question"
 what
 this or that "Gadol" said or did, but please let's
 not denigrate them for their supposed lack of 
compassion  when this is ceratinly not the case.
 
 HM

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In a message dated 12/9/99 7:43:24 AM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< In those cases My menoraa behaves like a Dreidel and starts to spin! >>

So light the dreidel and place bets on where the menorah ends up. You will 
truly capture the Chanukah spirit!

David Finch

I agree with HM about 90%

Let me just say this, I think the central issue is competing "goods"  If 
realieving Agunos were the sole good, the rabbis could probably do it more 
agressively.

Remember their is a flip side, a trade-off.  Ishus/mamzeirus/Niuf.

If freeing Agunos could be done w/o negative conseqeunces it proably would not 
be an issue.

Also recall that while the Manhattan project succeeded in producing an A-bomb, 
it also came along with a big price tag - and I'm NOT referring the financial 
fallout!

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

<SNIP>M
 The phrase often touted by the Ortho-femme's is: 
 "When
there is a rabbinic will there is a Rabbinic way." Well, I'm sorry the Torah is 
not that malleable. 

<SNIP>
 HM

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Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

In a message dated 12/9/99 8:56:20 AM US Central Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< For example, may one serve as legal counsel to Planned Parenthood?
 
 May one serve as a doctor for an individual seeking medical assitance in
 order to pursue certain aveiros (that may produce a visit to Planned
 Parenthood).
 
 May one serve as a counsel for evolutionists in their battle to keep
 creationism out of the curriculum.
 
 I actually am noteh to say the answer is that one may do so, as long as one
 does not serve pro-bono, but would like to see other opinions.
  >>

There's probably still a genuine fair-minded machlokess over whether Planned 
Parenthood's objectives are contrary to Judaism. As for the evolutionism, 
I've never understood any aspect of physics, including biophysics, to be 
inconsistent with creationism. In fact, the more sophisticated the theory, 
the comfortably it seems to fit with Genesis reasonably understood. (RYGB 
told me that, in reference to the writings of Aryeh Kaplan!!) Despite what 
William Jennings Bryan may have said on the courtroom steps, evolutionism 
does not exclude HaShem. Properly understood, the theory embraces Him.

Speaking of courthouse steps, various bar associations would find interesting 
(if not downright exciting) RYGB's suggestion that lawyers may argue certain 
questionable positions only on behalf of paying clients, not free-of-charge 
on behalf of indigent persons or for "the public good." I guess it's like 
working for a big law firm that represents such clients as Saudi Arabian land 
interests, the gun lobby, Big Tobacco, and the heirs to the old German 
munitions industry. This you can do during the week, and it's still okay to 
go to shul on Shabbos. Doesn't the lawyer at least have to change his prayers?

David Finch

harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> says:

> > If "they" can solve the problem re interest on loans, "they" can solve
> > this one.  This one is not only ruining women's lives, it's destroying
> > unborn generations -- all those babies not being born because those who
> > would have been their mothers can't remarry.  If you don't care about the
> > women, at least care about the population increase.
>
> If the "they" in the above post is reffering to the Gedolei HaDor, it
> boggles my mind to think that there is so little regard for the
> ability of Gedolei HaDor to have compassion.

At this particular point in the discussion I'm most exasperated with those
folks who cannot see that something needs to be fixed and retreat into
pious platitudes and assuming other people aren't frum enough because they
don't accept the inevitablity of oppression in a system which is supposed
to be just.

> The phrase often touted by the Ortho-femme's is: "When there is a
> rabbinic will there is a Rabbinic way." Well, I'm sorry the Torah is
> not that malleable.  Suppose all of Klal Israel decided to worship
> Avodah Zarah.  Should the Rabbis find a rabbinc way?  Pretty
> ridiculous, Huh?

This is such a red herring already. Plus a totally incorrect analogy.
As a teacher might say, "you're capable of better work than that!"  (I
know you are, you post a lot of good thoughtful stuff here.)

> There are just some things we just can't do anything about. That
> doesn't mean that the Agunah issue is unresolveable, it just means
> that as of yet we haven't figured out how, in a way that is acceptable
> to Torah Law.
>
> We need to work on that.

We certainly do.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

In a message dated 12/9/99 1:09:19 PM US Central Standard Time, 
TROMBAEDU@aol.com writes:

<< I discussed Wagner extensively months ago. B'kitzur, some of the 
characters 
 in his Operas would definitely be considered representations of a kind of 
 primitive, Neo Pagan German Christianity, with strong anti Semitic 
overtones. 
 (Especially in Parsifal) Leitmotifs associated with those characters would 
 therefore represent specifically, in his mind as well, the anti Semitic 
ideas 
 he wishes to represent. 
 Problem is, I love his music too. 
  >>

The problem of loving Wagner's music despite his hatred for Jews is an 
interesting one. What do most of us think of Gangsta Rap music, full of 
lyrics that praise rape, mutilation of women, and other forms of predation? 
What to we think about the sexually explicit lyrics of a lot of Hard Rock 
numbers a few years ago? Do we say to our teenage children, well, if you like 
this sort of music itself then go ahead and listen, just ignore the words? Do 
we distinguish Wagner on grounds that his music carries beautiful tones, 
while Deth Leppard's music does not? Frankly, I like Deth Leppard more than 
some of Wagner's fat ladies screaming about Valhalla.

This, folks, is dangerous ground.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/9/99 3:05:50 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< And talking about secular music consider Ricky Nelson's "Fools Rush in 
where 
 wise men fear to tread" >>

Ricky's lyrics are nothing new. It's all in Koheleth.

David Finch

----- Original Message -----
From: <DFinchPC@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Mesaye'a


> There's probably still a genuine fair-minded machlokess over whether
Planned
> Parenthood's objectives are contrary to Judaism. As for the evolutionism,

I do not know about that. Abortion is more severely prohibited for non-Jews
than Jews. If you are referring to birth control promotion, that is another
story. I do not think birth control is prohibited for non-Jews.

> Speaking of courthouse steps, various bar associations would find
interesting
> (if not downright exciting) RYGB's suggestion that lawyers may argue
certain
> questionable positions only on behalf of paying clients, not
free-of-charge
> on behalf of indigent persons or for "the public good." I guess it's like
> working for a big law firm that represents such clients as Saudi Arabian
land
> interests, the gun lobby, Big Tobacco, and the heirs to the old German
> munitions industry. This you can do during the week, and it's still okay
to
> go to shul on Shabbos. Doesn't the lawyer at least have to change his
prayers?
>

I would say that ethics, as in "va'sisa ha'yashar v'ha'tov" is a distinct
(albeit laudable and proper) goal for those of us who aspire to be true
Ovdei Hashem, and are therefore members of Avodah. If, however, a congregant
approaches his or her rabbi to ask what the strict baseline of halacha
requires, I do not think that he must rule that the congregant desist from
working in these areas (for pay).

Once I looked into the topic, agav urcha, I found a very interesting psak in
the Rema CM 183:7. Al pi din, one may cause an idolator to err and keep the
profit resulting from this.If a partner or agent provokes such  an error,
the profit must be split with the other partner or the person that
contracted the agency (the meshalei'ach). the Teshuvos Maimoni, Kinyan
9,20,22, notes that in our day in age we do not regard it as permissible to
deceive any human being of any stripe. (See also the Avnei Shoham on the
Ra'avan teshuva 3). Nevertheless, it seems that the ethical imperative not
to cheat even an idolator does not require the partner or meshalei'ach to
abstain from the *non-ethical* gains of his partner or shali'ach.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

 >>   First of all, in NY, the RCA pre-nup, in it's current form is legally
>>unenforceable.  As a practical matter it does little to protect poor wives.

    Do you have a case citation in NY (or elsewhere) finding the RCA pre-nup 
unenforceable?
    Thanks
    David I. Cohen

In a message dated 12/9/99 8:59:20 PM US Central Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< Nevertheless, it seems that the ethical imperative not
 to cheat even an idolator does not require the partner or meshalei'ach to
 abstain from the *non-ethical* gains of his partner or shali'ach.
  >>

True enough, perhaps. But that's not the issue here. The issue is whether 
certain "non-ethical" legal conduct (e.g., a Jewish lawyer representing 
Planned Parenthood, biology teachers, Israeli-hating Arabs, or various 
merchants of death) from which the lawyer is nonetheless permitted to split 
big fees with his non-Jewish partners, is *not* permitted when the Jewish 
lawyer does the work for free. To say that a Jewish lawyer is barred from 
advocating non-ethical positions pro bono that he is permitted to advocate 
for money -- dirty money, shall we say? -- is to say that dirty money 
cleanses dirty conduct. It also says a lot about favoring rich people who can 
pay for the lawyer.

David Finch

>
>     And the Heter Iskah?

A Heter from Hillel is *much* different from a Heter from any Rabbi today,
as I'm *sure* you will agree.

> Also, please note that no one as
> far as I know
> decries the Heter Mechira as being marbeh ovrei aveirah as

You obviolusly haven't been in Israel during Shmitta. Also, Shmitta is (in
most opinions) D'Rabbanan today, so there is much room to find heterim.

Aishut Ish is a D'Orisa, and there is much less room to play. The
consequence is Adultery and Mamzerut

> > >     At the very least they should to that.  The community
> > > should also shun such people and despise them.
> >
> > Agreed. And in many communities that is what happens.
>     HA!!!

How dare you make such an accusation. Could it be that you are nogea b'dvar
so much that you don't see what people *are* doing?

I *know* it happens here in Jerusalem, at least in Mea Sharim.

I also know that physical force *is* used, sometimes, to force a Get (the
Posek I spoke to mentioned it being used in NY when needed).

> > They aren't saying that. They just think that making
> mamzerim *isn't* the
> > solution.
>
>     Be very careful of your accusations

I have been -- have you?

The Posek I spoke to yesterday knows the families that Naomi Regan wrote
about. All he would say is that the issue isn't as one-sided as she made it
out to be.



Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

an observation that i made this morning:

i walked from kikkar shabbat to the brooklyn bakery, a
distance of 100 yards give or take.  within that
distance i counted 13 people asking for money.

i have been walking this route for 15 years.  it seems
to me that there are more and more people asking for
money.  granted there is higer unemployment in israe
than there was a few years ago.  but many of theese
people aren't the working type anyway.  Old folks,
kollel guys.

are the tzedakah funds drying up?  is there too much
demand and not enough donations?

a tangent: on the radio this morning it was reported
that the moetzet hagadolim has poskened that weddings
must be limited in size and cost per person - 250
guests max and no more than 10 dollars per person.

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> >     At the very least they should to that.  The community
> > should also shun such people and despise them.
>
> Agreed. And in many communities that is what happens.

    HA!!!

     In my own neighbhood growing up this was done.  With people walking out en
masse when the avran tried to come to daven.  The get was given.


Moshe Luchins

RYGB wrote:

>>For example, may one serve as legal counsel to Planned Parenthood?

May one serve as a doctor for an individual seeking medical assitance in 
order to pursue certain aveiros (that may produce a visit to Planned 
Parenthood).

May one serve as a counsel for evolutionists in their battle to keep 
creationism out of the curriculum.

I actually am noteh to say the answer is that one may do so, as long as one 
does not serve pro-bono, but would like to see other opinions.>>


Leshem talmud torah velo leshem halachah lema'aseh:

First of all, we have to clarify that we are talking about cases where 
there are plenty of other lawyers available so that this is chad avra 
denahara and we do not have lifnei iveir problems.  Given that this is 
America that is not a problem.  RYGB suggests that the lawyer's services 
can't be pro-bono.  I assume this is based on the Chavos Yair's famous psak 
that if you are offering services significantly cheaper than anyone else 
then it is trei avra denahara and lifnei iveir.  That being the case, the 
lawyer should not charge significantly less than a standard rate.

Now that there is no problem of lifnei iveir, we have to address mesaye'a.  
Tosafos in Avodah Zara (6a) imply that there is no problem of mesaye'a in 
giving someone assur food.  Tosafos in Shabbos (3a) say that there is a 
problem of mesaye'a in holding something in you hand for someone else to 
pick it up and move it from one reshus to another.  The Shach is meyashev 
this stirah by explaining that mesaye'a does not apply to a mumar.  In 
Avodah Zara tosafos is talking about a mumar while in Shabbos tosafos is 
talking about a non-mumar.  The Dagul Merevavah extends this further.  He 
says that mesaye'a does not apply to a meizid.  Rav Moshe Feinstein 
explicitly accepts this Dagul Merevavah.  The Avnei Nezer seems to accept 
the Shach without the Dagul Merevavah's addition.

The Binyan Tzion offers another (and IMHO better) yishuv.  He explains that 
mesaye'a only applies at the exact time of the aveirah.  In Shabbos, you 
are holding out the object for the person to take at the time of the 
aveirah.  In Avodah Zara you are giving someone food for him to eat at a 
later time.  The Netziv in Meishiv Davar accepts this understanding of 
tosafos but adds that according to Rashi and the Rambam one could only do 
it as part of one's livelihood.

According to the Binyan Tzion, a lawyer is not involved with the actual 
ma'aseh aveirah but only with advice and representation beforehand.  
According to the Netziv, this is part of a lawyer's livelihood.  So these 
two poskim would seem to permit it.

According to the Shach, if the person wanting an abortion is not Shomer 
Shabbos (and by definition a mumar to all mitzvos) or has had abortions 
before (and therefore a mumar to this mitzvah) then there is no problem of 
mesaye'a.  Otherwise there is.  According to the Dagul Merevavah, if she 
wants an abortion then she is a meizidah and there is no prohibition of 
mesaye'a.  It might be assur to bring the subject up because until then she 
might not want an abortion.

A counsel for creationists, who presumably are spreading atheism along with 
their creationism, will be representing gentiles.  There is no prohibiton 
of mesaye'a for a gentile.

I was asked to provide more explicit mar'eh mekomot on the subject of
incorporating non-Jewish music into the Jewish liturgy.

For two contemporary discussions, see R. Hayyim David Halevi, Aseh Lekha
Rav III, no. 5 and R. Ovadya Yosef, Yehavveh Da`at II, no. 5.  Both are
mattir using using non-Jewish melodies, which is very widespread within
edot mizrah.  However, as noted previously, the former draws a
distinction between Arab (i.e., Moslem) music and Christian music.

The statement of Rema (Orah Hayyim 53:25) cited in my previous post is
based on a teshuvah of the Rif (no. 281), that one should discharge a
shali'ah tzibbur who sings Arabic songs..  The Be'er Heitev cites the
teshuvah of the Bah (Yeshanot, no. 127 [I have not corroborated this
citation]) that limits this rule to music specifically designated for
idolatrous uses.

The fascinating teshuvah of R. Yisrael Moshe Hazzan is in Kerakh shel
Romi, no. 1.

Among the mattirim cited by R. Yosef and R. Halevi :
Hida, Birkei Yosef, no. 560, which cites Maharm di Lonzano, Shetei Yadot
142a
R. Avraham Alakalay, Zekhor le-Avraham, s.v. kaddish.
R. Eliyahu Hazzan, Ta'alumot Lev III, likkutim, 96b.

Kol tuv and Hanukkah same'ah,

Eli Clark

Gil Student (are you related to the man who invented the t test?) wrote:
>>
 Let's 
take an informal poll.  How many people on this list used a prenuptial 
agreement requiring a get upon civil divorce?
<<

I did.

Reminds me of a story a man I knew told me.  When he went overseas for
WWII he went to the Rabbi in Atlanta (his port of departure) to obtain a
get al tnai for his wife.  The Rabbi told him that of the thousands of
Jewish soldiers who left from there he was the only one who had done
that.

RYGB wrote:
<<
No one picked up on my message of yesterday. Perhaps folks understood it
as
a protest against R' Rackman's BD, but it realy wasn't. It is a serious
question re lawyering, and many other professions.
>>
Actually lawyering has many more halachic problems than other
professions, though I believe R. Broyde published an article permitting
it.  Ignoring those, my instinct is to permit it because other lawyers
are available.  Your other issues are muddier since they are public
policy problems and not everything advocated by any of those groups is
an obvious issur.
  Admittedly, every time I see the pasuk "tamim tihyeh im hashem ..." I
wonder about the permissability of my own profession (it seems to be a
machloketh rishonim ...).

R. Hirsch wrote:
>>
 If Gentiles 
have Ruach Ha kodesh, he [JS Bach] would be one of my candidates for
receiving it.
<<

  I'm not sure what this means - whether you think Bach's music seems to
have been Divinely inspired, or whether you think it could have been
improved by Divine inspiration.  In either case, though I too greatly
enjoy Baach's music, I find the statement puzzling.
  Doesn't divine inspiration have moral or intellectual content? I
hardly think that theory of counterpoint, as fun as it is, is
sufficiently abstruse to require Divine assistance.

David Riceman

When I said that counterpoint did not require Divine assistance, I of
course meant only the unusual level of Divine assistance called "ruach
hakodesh".  It naturally requires the more normal level of Divine
assistance we all need to muddle through our days.

David Riceman

On the subject of mesaye'a, R. Moshe Luchins wrote:

>See Rav Reisman's sefer on ribbis Chapter 2 part 15 especially FN 25.

I believe it would be a mistake to generalize from ribbit to some of the
issues mentioned by RYGB, as we have an explicit Mishnah that extends
the ribbit issur to the arev, even the sofer, who facilitates a ribbit
transaction.  See Bava Metzi`a 5:11.

In the ribbit case, the issur issues directly from one's conduct.  In
contrast, one who offers legal counsel to a lobbying organization, may
not be directly facilitating any issurim.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

R. Richard Wolpoe writes:

>Hazzanus and Hazzanim have mesoros too.  The salient issues are - do we
>recgonize these mesoaros as having value or do we turn to Poskim and
halachaists
>exclusively?!

>If we rely solely upon  halachic texts, we will find out that Chazzonim are
>decried all over the place for repeating words and singing secular tunes etc.

>Despite this, they persisted in doing it for a few centuries anyway.

As many have pointed out before me, an oral tradition is not ipso facto
valid.  The historian who coined the term "mimetic tradition" never
suggested that the tradition is always valid; to the contrary he
suggested that some who rely on "custom" in contravention of halakhah
will have to answer for it in due time.

As RRW noted, the "mesorah" of hazzanim was subject to constant
criticism from halakhic authorities; this is in sharp contrast to the
kind of mimetic tradition discussed by Haym Soloveitchik, which had the
tacit consent of generations of halakhists.

For those who are interested, I present some examples of disapproval of
hazzanim voiced by halakhic authorities.

R. Natronai Gaon wrote of "Hazzanim who appear to be punctilious, but in
fact diminish and supplement the formula established by the Hakhamim,
and change it."  (Cited in Y. Ta-Shema, Tarbitz 53:2 (1984), 285ff.)

Magen Avraham, Orah Hayyim 281:4: "And the ancients have already gone to
extremes (hifligu) in criticizing the singers who stretch out and [so]
insert breaks between one letter and the next or one word and the next."

Hatam Sofer, Teshuvot, Orah Hayyim, no 205, writes that, in his day, he
would characterize the majority of the "singers" as resha'im.  He also
quotes one of his teachers, R. Mendel Lileg, who said that "the hazzanim
carry the prayers of Israel out of the encampment as if they were
harlots."

Hasidic leaders too shared this view.  See R. Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Toledot Ya'akov Yosef, 96: "like the hazzanim who nullify the prayer and
concentrate on the art of melodious music, which was initially
subordinate to the essence, namely, prayer, but now they have abandoned
the essence and embraced the subordinate."

See also Sefer Hasidim, no. 251, criticizing hazzanim as engaged in sin,
"because they are doing it only in order that to make heard their
pleasant voices."  Rosh, Teshuvot, no. 4:22, "And I thundered because
the hazzanim of this land are just [engaged in it] for their own
pleasure, to hear a pleasing voice."

These and other sources may be found in D. Sperber, Minhagei Yisrael IV,
33ff.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

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