Avodah Mailing List
Volume 04 : Number 142
Thursday, November 18 1999
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:45:46 -0500 (EST)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: chabad messianic minyan [mail jewish 30-11]
Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes at the end of v4n137:
: 4. There is a caterer here in Chicago that has a
: Mashiachist as it's Mashgiach Timidi. Can one eat
: from this caterer?
Why not? Why would it be any worse than trusting a Kusi's shechitah? Once
we eliminate the problem that Kusiim don't hold by "lifnei iver" (except
literally) and possible lack of dikduk in certain hilchos shechitah, we're
allowed to eat their shechitah. (Chullin 4a) Here too we're talking about
someone who has an identical definition of the halachos as we do, but differs
in belief system.
I can see tefillah bedavkah being a problem, since many meshichtzin take
tzaddik gozeir to extents that most of us would consider a violation of
the Rambam's 3rd ikkar (that only Hashem is the target of prayer). As it's
oso inyan, it is possible R' Elyashiv's p'sak applies only to this.
Also, the boreinuniks (a minority of the minority) consitute halachic problems
WRT ovdei avodah zarah -- stam yeinam, etc... But this is such a miut, what
are the odds that one is the 10th man in your minyan?
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 18-Nov-99: Chamishi, Vayetzei
micha@aishdas.org A"H
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 70b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
Go to top.
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:56:06 -0600
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: What was wrong with the retraction
In response to RMF and RDS, I forward a reply not written by myself, but,
far more eloquently, by a member of Avodah, who prefers anonymity, who is
very well respected, and generally associated with the the more "MO" segment
of our list.
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila ygb@aishdas.org
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:18:17 -0500 (EST)
> > AN ADDENDUM TO LAST WEEK'S FORSHPEIS ON DOWNS SYNDROME
> >
> > Last week's Forshpeis precipitated significant discussion. People have
> > misunderstood my words and as the author I assume full responsibility.
The
> > purpose of that Dvar Torah was not to assert that Yitzhak (Isaac) had
Downs
> > Syndrome. That assertion has no basis.
>
> Why then does the dvar Torah make a great deal of the fact that Abraham
> and Sarah were elderly and therefore likely to have a Downs child?
>
> >
> > The intent of the Forshpeis was to indicate that from the perspective of
> > drush, Yitzhak possessed some characteristics that teach us something,
not
> > about Yitzhak, but about Downs Syndrome. Specifically, that those who
have
> > Downs have the capacity to spiritually reach the highest levels and to
> > inspire others to reach extraordinary heights.
>
> What it actually demonstrated is that some people who don't have Downs
> have the capacity to reach the highest levels of stupidity and, through
> persistent and unintelligible "clarifications," to attribute even greater
> stupidity to their audience.
>
> > I was pained that some individuals, in reacting to this idea, even went
so
> > far as to state that those with Downs may not have been created in the
image
> > of God.
>
> I am pained that some individuals, when caught out in their reckless,
> thoughtless, irresponsible fantasizing about dvar Hashem, can only defend
> themselves by character assassination. After they have changed the subject
> by maligning their critics, they go back to talking about ahavat Yisrael.
>
> I am insulted at being treated like an Alzheimer patient who has no memory
> today of what he read yesterday.
>
> >
> > For some, spirituality is exclusively bound with the intellect. Those
of
> > lesser intelligence are not viewed as having the capacity to have
spiritual
> > depth. The Forshpeis was an attempt to say that spirituality emerges
from
> > the whole being-not only from the mind, but also from the soul. Those
with
> > Downs may be blessed with the spiritual brilliance to become the
greatest
> > tsadikim or tsidkaniot of their generation.
>
> For some, integrity, "spiritual" or just simple human decency, involves
> telling the truth, whether in studying Torah or in taking responsibility
> for one's statements.
>
> "Spirituality" emerges not only from hot air and pompous gesticulations,
> but from ordinary human honesty, an honesty that is not confined to those
> of higher intelligence and income. Individuals with Downs may or may not
> become the greatest tsaddikim or tsidkaniyot of their generation. They can
> all live with ordinary human dignity and integrity, which is more than can
> be said for some of our self-proclaimed "spiritual" leaders, no matter
> what other virtues they lay claim to.
>
> --------------------------
>
> Rabbotay, this "clarification" is even sadder than the original silliness.
> Why do I feel this way? Probably because, in order to cover up its own
> foolishness, it stoops to name-calling.
>
> I hope that we can learn from the virtues of the author, which stand
> before my mind as I write this, even as we turn our backs on the
> intellectual mentality his words represent.
>
> May G-d have mercy on us!
>
Go to top.
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:02:27 -0500
From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: What was wrong with the retraction
I must protest the use of "RDS" when describing me. I am not a rabbi, have
not advanced Jewish degree, and am not entitled to that honorific. A simple
Daniel will do.
DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 6:56 PM
Subject: What was wrong with the retraction
> In response to RMF and RDS, I forward a reply not written by myself, but,
> far more eloquently, by a member of Avodah, who prefers anonymity, who is
> very well respected, and generally associated with the the more "MO"
segment
> of our list.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila ygb@aishdas.org
>
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:18:17 -0500 (EST)
> > > AN ADDENDUM TO LAST WEEK'S FORSHPEIS ON DOWNS SYNDROME
> > >
> > > Last week's Forshpeis precipitated significant discussion. People have
> > > misunderstood my words and as the author I assume full responsibility.
> The
> > > purpose of that Dvar Torah was not to assert that Yitzhak (Isaac) had
> Downs
> > > Syndrome. That assertion has no basis.
> >
> > Why then does the dvar Torah make a great deal of the fact that Abraham
> > and Sarah were elderly and therefore likely to have a Downs child?
> >
> > >
> > > The intent of the Forshpeis was to indicate that from the perspective
of
> > > drush, Yitzhak possessed some characteristics that teach us something,
> not
> > > about Yitzhak, but about Downs Syndrome. Specifically, that those who
> have
> > > Downs have the capacity to spiritually reach the highest levels and to
> > > inspire others to reach extraordinary heights.
> >
> > What it actually demonstrated is that some people who don't have Downs
> > have the capacity to reach the highest levels of stupidity and, through
> > persistent and unintelligible "clarifications," to attribute even
greater
> > stupidity to their audience.
> >
> > > I was pained that some individuals, in reacting to this idea, even
went
> so
> > > far as to state that those with Downs may not have been created in the
> image
> > > of God.
> >
> > I am pained that some individuals, when caught out in their reckless,
> > thoughtless, irresponsible fantasizing about dvar Hashem, can only
defend
> > themselves by character assassination. After they have changed the
subject
> > by maligning their critics, they go back to talking about ahavat
Yisrael.
> >
> > I am insulted at being treated like an Alzheimer patient who has no
memory
> > today of what he read yesterday.
> >
> > >
> > > For some, spirituality is exclusively bound with the intellect. Those
> of
> > > lesser intelligence are not viewed as having the capacity to have
> spiritual
> > > depth. The Forshpeis was an attempt to say that spirituality emerges
> from
> > > the whole being-not only from the mind, but also from the soul. Those
> with
> > > Downs may be blessed with the spiritual brilliance to become the
> greatest
> > > tsadikim or tsidkaniot of their generation.
> >
> > For some, integrity, "spiritual" or just simple human decency, involves
> > telling the truth, whether in studying Torah or in taking responsibility
> > for one's statements.
> >
> > "Spirituality" emerges not only from hot air and pompous gesticulations,
> > but from ordinary human honesty, an honesty that is not confined to
those
> > of higher intelligence and income. Individuals with Downs may or may not
> > become the greatest tsaddikim or tsidkaniyot of their generation. They
can
> > all live with ordinary human dignity and integrity, which is more than
can
> > be said for some of our self-proclaimed "spiritual" leaders, no matter
> > what other virtues they lay claim to.
> >
> > --------------------------
> >
> > Rabbotay, this "clarification" is even sadder than the original
silliness.
> > Why do I feel this way? Probably because, in order to cover up its own
> > foolishness, it stoops to name-calling.
> >
> > I hope that we can learn from the virtues of the author, which stand
> > before my mind as I write this, even as we turn our backs on the
> > intellectual mentality his words represent.
> >
> > May G-d have mercy on us!
> >
>
>
Go to top.
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:10:52 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: What was wrong with the retraction
Please clarify is this:
1) an attempt to accuse RAW ofbeing guilty of character assasination
ORr
2) an attempt to assissinate RAW's character?
Rich Wolpoe
_____________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
RYGB besheim ploni almoni:
> I am pained that some individuals, when caught out in their reckless,
> thoughtless, irresponsible fantasizing about dvar Hashem, can only defend
> themselves by character assassination. After they have changed the subject
> by maligning their critics, they go back to talking about ahavat Yisrael.
Go to top.
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 02:14:21 +0200
From: "David and Tamar Hojda" <hojda@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: RAW apology
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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The "D'Var Torah" was horribly offensive and absolutely obscene. I am =
new to this list and held back from asking why we were not sent an =
apology for being exposed to such material. The "addendum" adds the sin =
of dishonesty and geneivas da'as, perfect for Parshas V'Yetzei: =20
ADDENDUM: "The purpose of that Dvar Torah was not to assert that Yitzhak =
(Isaac) had Downs=20
Syndrome."=20
Thank You for the clarification.=20
I might give the author the benefit of the doubt and say that the =
purpose was merely to insult the memory of Yitzchak Avinunu by pointing =
out his shortcomings: That he "is easy to deceive, he lacks =
individuality, is spared grief, is compliant and is even laughed at."
However, the DRASH continues:"It should be pointed out that aged parents =
are more vulnerable to having a Downs child. Avraham and Sarah were =
elderly when Yitzhak was born."
It should be pointed out that this sentence seems to contradict what its =
author suggests in his addendum.
It is also deeply offensive and ridiculously superficial.
Perhaps this prominent Rabbi's D'Var Torah does teach us some valuable =
lessons about just who can possibly "reach the highest levels" of =
spiritual leadership in our time, but not in the way that the author =
intended.=20
Please forgive me, I know nothing of the author of this DRASH and do not =
wish to attack him, but this was disgusting.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<P align=3Djustify>The "D'Var Torah" was horribly offensive =
and=20
absolutely obscene. I am new to this list and held back from asking =
why we=20
were not sent an apology for being exposed to such material. The=20
"addendum" adds the sin of dishonesty and geneivas da'as, perfect =
for=20
Parshas V'Yetzei: </P>
<P align=3Djustify>ADDENDUM: "The purpose of that Dvar Torah was not to =
assert=20
that Yitzhak (Isaac) had Downs <BR>Syndrome." </P>
<P align=3Djustify>Thank You for the clarification. </P>
<P align=3Djustify>I might give the author the benefit of the doubt and =
say=20
that the purpose was merely to insult the memory of Yitzchak =
Avinunu=20
by pointing out his shortcomings: That he "is easy to deceive, he lacks=20
individuality, is spared grief, is compliant and is even laughed =
at."</P>
<P align=3Djustify>However, the DRASH continues:"It should be pointed =
out that=20
aged parents are more vulnerable to having a Downs child. Avraham and =
Sarah were=20
elderly when Yitzhak was born."</P>
<P align=3Djustify>It should be pointed out that this sentence seems to =
contradict=20
what its author suggests in his addendum.</P>
<P align=3Djustify>It is also deeply offensive and ridiculously =
superficial.</P>
<P align=3Djustify>Perhaps this prominent Rabbi's D'Var Torah does teach =
us some=20
valuable lessons about just who can possibly "reach the highest =
levels" of=20
spiritual leadership in our time, but not in the way that the author =
intended.=20
</P>
<P align=3Djustify>Please forgive me, I know nothing of the author of =
this DRASH=20
and do not wish to attack him, but this was disgusting.</P>
<P align=3Djustify> </P>
<P align=3Djustify> </P>
<P align=3Djustify> </P></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF3233.CA899B80--
Go to top.
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:07:57 -0500
From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: What was wrong with the retraction
This rejoinder, aside from eloquently displaying a great deal of anger,
contributes very little to the conversation. It seems that those who wish
to take offense at R. Weiss's comment will do so no matter how it is
explained/rationlized. Those who simply believe that he is guilty of
forcing a point into a texy which does not support it, will still believe
that, but perhaps will have a better undrestanding of the motivation behind
the shoddy drush. While I think it would behoove R. Weiss to review some of
the basic elements of Drush, I don't think the poster of this hot headed
rejoinder is really interested in that type of discussion.
DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 6:56 PM
Subject: What was wrong with the retraction
> In response to RMF and RDS, I forward a reply not written by myself, but,
> far more eloquently, by a member of Avodah, who prefers anonymity, who is
> very well respected, and generally associated with the the more "MO"
segment
> of our list.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila ygb@aishdas.org
>
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:18:17 -0500 (EST)
> > > AN ADDENDUM TO LAST WEEK'S FORSHPEIS ON DOWNS SYNDROME
> > >
> > > Last week's Forshpeis precipitated significant discussion. People have
> > > misunderstood my words and as the author I assume full responsibility.
> The
> > > purpose of that Dvar Torah was not to assert that Yitzhak (Isaac) had
> Downs
> > > Syndrome. That assertion has no basis.
> >
> > Why then does the dvar Torah make a great deal of the fact that Abraham
> > and Sarah were elderly and therefore likely to have a Downs child?
> >
> > >
> > > The intent of the Forshpeis was to indicate that from the perspective
of
> > > drush, Yitzhak possessed some characteristics that teach us something,
> not
> > > about Yitzhak, but about Downs Syndrome. Specifically, that those who
> have
> > > Downs have the capacity to spiritually reach the highest levels and to
> > > inspire others to reach extraordinary heights.
> >
> > What it actually demonstrated is that some people who don't have Downs
> > have the capacity to reach the highest levels of stupidity and, through
> > persistent and unintelligible "clarifications," to attribute even
greater
> > stupidity to their audience.
> >
> > > I was pained that some individuals, in reacting to this idea, even
went
> so
> > > far as to state that those with Downs may not have been created in the
> image
> > > of God.
> >
> > I am pained that some individuals, when caught out in their reckless,
> > thoughtless, irresponsible fantasizing about dvar Hashem, can only
defend
> > themselves by character assassination. After they have changed the
subject
> > by maligning their critics, they go back to talking about ahavat
Yisrael.
> >
> > I am insulted at being treated like an Alzheimer patient who has no
memory
> > today of what he read yesterday.
> >
> > >
> > > For some, spirituality is exclusively bound with the intellect. Those
> of
> > > lesser intelligence are not viewed as having the capacity to have
> spiritual
> > > depth. The Forshpeis was an attempt to say that spirituality emerges
> from
> > > the whole being-not only from the mind, but also from the soul. Those
> with
> > > Downs may be blessed with the spiritual brilliance to become the
> greatest
> > > tsadikim or tsidkaniot of their generation.
> >
> > For some, integrity, "spiritual" or just simple human decency, involves
> > telling the truth, whether in studying Torah or in taking responsibility
> > for one's statements.
> >
> > "Spirituality" emerges not only from hot air and pompous gesticulations,
> > but from ordinary human honesty, an honesty that is not confined to
those
> > of higher intelligence and income. Individuals with Downs may or may not
> > become the greatest tsaddikim or tsidkaniyot of their generation. They
can
> > all live with ordinary human dignity and integrity, which is more than
can
> > be said for some of our self-proclaimed "spiritual" leaders, no matter
> > what other virtues they lay claim to.
> >
> > --------------------------
> >
> > Rabbotay, this "clarification" is even sadder than the original
silliness.
> > Why do I feel this way? Probably because, in order to cover up its own
> > foolishness, it stoops to name-calling.
> >
> > I hope that we can learn from the virtues of the author, which stand
> > before my mind as I write this, even as we turn our backs on the
> > intellectual mentality his words represent.
> >
> > May G-d have mercy on us!
> >
>
>
Go to top.
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:43:20 -0800 (PST)
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ha-aretz article on Hillel
Micha, I am thoroughly impressed by you insight into
the nature of those who seek change in their religious
status. Your point made by the coinage of your phrase
is profound and bears repeating:
12
> "The mind
> is a wonderful organ for justifying the conclusions
> the heart already
> reached."
HM
--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Janet Rosenbaum <jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu> writes in
> v4n135 about two web
> sites that have stories of people who left frumkeit:
> : The sad thing about these stories --- on both
> sites --- is that they're
> : either specific to specific family circumstances
> or result from people
> : being surprised at reading, say, Reform Torah
> commentary on the sly.
> : It sounds like most of them just make a clean
> break out of frustration
> : rather than trying to work things out.
>
> I believe that people don't switch religious
> positions for intellectual
> reasons. The aphorism I've coined and used ad
> nauseum on scj is "The mind
> is a wonderful organ for justifying the conclusions
> the heart already
> reached." Emotions provide our decisions with drive
> and momentum. Something
> like religion, which has much emotional investment,
> isn't going to be
> convinced away. Someone facing data that appears to
> challenge his religious
> position (whether or not it really does) will either
> assume an answer exists
> that he doesn't know or comparmentalize religion
> from the problem and ignore
> it.
>
> That's why I believe kiruv has had so much success
> with an experiential
> approach -- try a Shabbos, see that it works. Even
> the Discovery Seminar
> is a hook to get people to experience Yiddishkeit.
>
> I therefore agree with your opinion, but primarily
> because of your wording.
> The first class, who have family issues, are
> abandoning a context that is
> painful to them, the belief system is just part of
> that. The second class
> are leaving over FRUSTRATION. Not because the
> argument is true or false,
> but because it comes as a surprise that there's a
> whole intellectual universe
> that was kept hidden from them.
>
> It's like a teenager who finds out surreptitiously
> that he's an adoptee. His
> attitude toward his parents and his own identity is
> VERY different than if he
> knew he was adopted from early on, and was told
> straightforwardly.
>
> Because I think the underlying drive is emotional,
> I'm unsurprised that they
> won't go to a Rabbi about it. Aside from the stigma
> associated with admitting
> you read such sefarim chitzoniim, these people
> aren't seeking answers. They
> aren't seeking facts -- they seeking emotional
> resolution.
>
> -mi
>
> --
> Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for
> 18-Nov-99: Chamishi, Vayetzei
> micha@aishdas.org
> A"H
> http://www.aishdas.org
> Pisachim 70b
> For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
>
>
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:45:30 -0500 (EST)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: Yitchak had Downs Syndrome!?!
I don't understand how RAW's clarification can be rejected out of hand, or
even described as a retraction.
Isn't this exactly the way the article read to a half-dozen of us here?
How can you deny that the article could have even possibly meant the way he
intended it to when people here already told you they understood it the very
same way without the clarification?
Yes, the article was ambiguous. And RAW apologized for that. Perhaps he should
get another proofreader to make sure that his intent is more clearly captured.
I'm bothered by his quoting Saul Berman's position and then defining it as
merely wrong, not absurd and heretical. You can't bring an idea like that
into discussion without clearly stamping out any possible fires that it
might generate. Otherwise, you run the risk of leading people to apikursus.
That problem is reinforced in the clarification.
Going on a very un-likaf zechus witchhunt to find faults in an article robs
your credibility when you have less contravertable issues.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 18-Nov-99: Chamishi, Vayetzei
micha@aishdas.org A"H
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 70b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
Go to top.
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 2:52 +0200
From: BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: simplicity
Think of the tremendous kiddush hashem that would ensue if say a
man worth hundreds of millions of dollars would make a "rabbanut style"
wedding [in Israel, one can married at the offices of the Rabbanut for
a cost of under $45 which includes canned music, 2 bottles of soda,
a bottle of wine, plastic cups, and some cookies]. And the $45 includes
the license fee.
As someone quipped, "What's good for the GVIR is good for the gander".
Imagine the effects this would have on the *baalebatim*.
It's unfortunate that instead of Chassidishe rebbes serving as role models
(having extremely simple and inexpensive simchas) they are in the vanguard
of the ostentatious amd opulent extravaganzas that have recently taken
place in Jerusalem and NYC with 10,000 guests attending.
We don't need takkanot, we need community leaders to set an example.
Josh
Go to top.
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:54:50 -0800 (PST)
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Simplicity & R.Twersky's recommended takanah
--- TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
> One of the things I would recommend is to establish
> standard practices, in
> conjunction with the vendors involved, to coordinate
> size-expense
> relationships. In other words, urging those who want
> to make a larger weding,
> to do so within certain extravegance limits, which
> won't impact as severely
> the caterers income.
I don't like it
Your solution and Moshe's Solutions address only on
part of the problem: the way a particular Takana might
affect certain members of the community, who are in
the Simcha business.
It does not address the fact that by trying to reduce
the jealousy engenderd by extravagant weddings with
"Limits" Takanos, you are prevneting the wealthy from
enjoying their wealth in a manner that they see fit.
HM
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