Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 110

Thursday, November 4 1999

• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• Re: Avodah V4 #99 and Hm's scurrilous comment about Chabad-Lubavitch
• RE: Rambam and Asceticism
• Re: Bekius/B'Iyun - CD ROM = Red Herring
• Re: Bekius/B'Iyun - CD ROM = Red Herring
• Re: Shabbos Guests
• Rambam and Asceticism
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• RYBS and R. Aaron Kotler
• Soloveitchik & Feinstein
• Re: Sefer Chasidim (was: Rambam and Asceticism)
• Re: RYBS and R. Aaron Kotler
• secular education and lubavitch
• Shidduchim (was Re: Shabbos Guests)
• Re: Shabbos Guests
• Re: Bekius/B'Iyun - CD ROM = Red Herring
• Re: secular education and lubavitch

Simcha does not equal Hana'ah.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <gil.student@citicorp.com>
To: <mfeldman@cm-p.com>; <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>;
<avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: Rambam and Asceticism


>      >>>>Contrast this with Chasidism which believes that one may serve
>      Hashem by having pleasure.>>>>
>
>      >>Which Chasidim might those be?>>
>
>      He certainly isn't Chasidish but the Alter of Slabodka discusses at
>      length that all avodah has to be besimcha, even teshuva [and not just
>      the Magid Mishneh at the end of hilchos sukkah's type of simchah].
>      See Or HaTzafun vol II, pp. 118-131.
>
>      I don't know much about Chasidus but didn't R. Nachman from Bretslav
>      say "mitzvah gedolah lihyos besimcha tamid."
>
>

Don't forget my other uncles, including Uncle David, Mara d'Asra of Chabad
Toronto.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Shlomo Yaffe <syaffe@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
>
> The Rosh Yeshivah of Yeshivas Ohr Elchanan Chabad in LA, Rabbi Ezra
> Schochet

 From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
> Simcha does not equal Hana'ah.

> From: <gil.student@citicorp.com>
> >      I don't know much about Chasidus but didn't R. Nachman 
> from Bretslav
> >      say "mitzvah gedolah lihyos besimcha tamid."
> >

Granted.  But if you have simcha because you had hana'ah (which you
recognized as coming from Hashem and this helps you thank Hashem for all the
chesed he has done for you), doesn't that help you be besimcha tamid?  Is
the only simcha which qualifies simcha shel mitzvah?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

----- Original Message -----

> What do you think of the other extreme: I heard that Breslovers
> believe that one should read through Shas even if one doesn't
> understand it because one will be able to understand it in olam haba.
>  (Can anyone confirm or deny this ascription to Breslovers?)
>
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe

It ain't just Breslovers. The Ba'al haTanya in his Shulchan Aruch, R'
Yisroel Salanter and the Chofetz Chaim to name a few.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 2:53 PM
Subject: Bekius/B'Iyun - CD ROM = Red Herring


> Question: If that learning didn't stick or even if it did but was totally
not
> understood, wouldn't it be like a "chamor nosei Seforim?"
>
> Couldn't leraning for the sake of covering ground be a ruse by the Yetzer
horo
> to avoid really working at learning and engagin our full faculties?
>
> Rich Wolpoe


Chas v'Shalom.

If, however, one CAN learn b'omek and learns b'shitchiyus, the Nefesh
Ha'Chaim considers this a form of Bittul Torah.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

--- Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> The real heart of the issue is the extremely low level of self
> esteem
> among frum girls (almost across the spectrum) - which show up any
> time any such tests are done, almost regardless of in which
> community,
> or where in the world,  they are done.
> 
> The deeper cause of that, IMHO is the linkage between the
> expectations
> on frum girls linked with the shidduch system.  Frum girls are
> brought
> up to believe (as per Micha) tbat their aim in life is to build a
> bayis
> ne'eman b'yisroel.  However, that means they cannot begin on their
> task
> in life until they find a shidduch.
> 
> Some people on here have made comments (some perhaps half jokingly)
> that they have children to marry off, and hence cannot be seen to
> be
> espousing certain positions.  

You say that the problem is across the spectrum.  Yet your
explanation really covers the RW--i.e., those who choose to be part
of the "shidduch" system.  That system includes background checks and
people being set up by people in their parents' generation (and
needing parental approval to accept a date).

In the YU world, people are more likely to be set up by friends. 
They are not as worried about some minor detail which might slip out
about them, because their friends will put things in perspective. 
Certainly the expression "shter a shidduch" seems to be associated
with the RW world, not the YU world.  (I, for one, will only refer
jokingly to being worried about shidduch chances for my children.)

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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In v3#106 Moshe wrote:

>Who said that ascetic tendencies do not derive from Torah?
>(Maybe because you have this association you are fighting me so much on this
>point.)  On the contrary.  I wouldn't be surprised if *most* of the Rishonim
>has ascetic tendencies (or at least the view that pleasure has no intrinsic
>importance).

You did not say so explicitly. But if you think ascetic tendencies do derive
from Torah and that most rishonim had ascetic tendencies, why not recognize
them as at least aspirational points of reference for contemporary ovday Hashem
instead of maintaining that they cannot "resonate" for us anymore and that (at
least as regards sexuality) halochos based thereon are not "appropriate" for our
times? Also, why compare ascetic tendencies to the types of exta-masoratic
convictions you (with Dr. C. Soloveitchik) attribute to R' Y'huda Hachasid?
Sorry
if these sorts of questions led me to the apparently mistaken conclusion
that you view asceic tendencies as being culturally conditioned rather than
derived from Torah.

>Halacha 1[of Hilchos Dayos, ch. 3] was not pleasure-affirming.  It merely
>states that one should not engage in extreme pleasure-denying practices.

I don't read it that way. It also says that anyone who denies himself permitted
pleasures is a sinner.

>I read Dr. S's article some years ago, but as I recall he brings convincing
>evidence that R. Yehudah Hachasid believed that in addition to the mesorah
>of chazal as to what Hashem wants of us, there are other--new--requirements
>that we must discover (will someone who read the article more recently
>please elaborate?) .  He set about discovering these new requirements.  In
>his time, he was rejected by the rishonim; many of the ba'alei Hatosfot
>actually made fun of him and his talmidim.  Only a number of generations
>after his death did his work become popular, after it was forgotten that the
>work was motivated by the concept of new requirements.

I can only urge you to study sefer Chasidim with an open mind and the
comments of  R' Reuven Margolios, who gives m'koros in chazal (often
quite obscure ones) for virtually everything R' Yehuda Hachasid has to say.
If you do, I'm not sure you'll find Dr. S. quite so convincing anymore. In
addition, if Dr. S. were right, don't you think a boki b'kol haTora kulo like
Chida or R' Eliezer Papo (both of whom composed extensive works on
Sefer Chasidim) would have noticed that something was amiss when they
read statements in Sefer Chasidim that don't appear anywhere in the
mesora, even if they "forgot" about R' Yehuda Hachasid's supposed
convictions regarding extra-masoratic requirements? Fianlly, that R' Yehuda
Hachasid wasn't accepted by his contemporaries is not dispositive
of anything. We can observe the same phenomenon with Ramchal and
others who have our alliegance today.

Kol tuv, David

Yes, probably.



----- Original Message -----
From: <Joelirich@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Rambam and Asceticism

> Perhaps a bit of hyperbole - or do Chassidim feel that we TUM's are
avaryanim
> or misaya lovrei aveira?
>
> Kol Tuv,
> Joel Rich
>

--- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:
>But if you think ascetic tendencies
> do derive
> from Torah and that most rishonim had ascetic tendencies, why not
> recognize
> them as at least aspirational points of reference for contemporary
> ovday Hashem
> instead of maintaining that they cannot "resonate" for us anymore
> and that (at
> least as regards sexuality) halochos based thereon are not
> "appropriate" for our
> times? 

Somehow, you seem to have misconstrued what I said.  There are many
drachim towards avodat Hashem, both pleasure-affirming and
pleasure-negating.  In generations past, the majority of rabbanim may
have preferred pleasure-negating drachim.  Today, such a view is
difficult for most people to adhere to (probably because of the
material prosperity in which we find ourselves), though it's just as
philosophically viable as it always was.  It's "appropriate" for you
if it resonates with you.  It doesn't resonate with most people.

>Also, why compare ascetic tendencies to the types of
> exta-masoratic
> convictions you (with Dr. C. Soloveitchik) attribute to R' Y'huda
> Hachasid?

The comparison was only with regard to the notion that philosophical
underpinnings of statements should be examined.  Sorry if that misled
you (though I believe in my original post I purposely did not explain
that there are extra-masoretic problems with RY Hachasid and just
said that I would examine carefully the origin of any given statement
of his).

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

__________________________________________________
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And according to Dr. Joe Kaminetsky's auto-biography, R. Aaron "divorecd" 
Chinuch Atzmoi from the Aguda davka to be ableto include RYBS.

I would LOVE to see a sefer detaling the co-operation and mutual respect 
amongst "gedolim" accross the spectrum.

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Yes, there were close connections between the Feinstein family and RYBS. 
However, the role of other  Roshei Yeshiva(hamavein yavin) who prevented RYBS 
from speaking at Rav Aharon Kotler's leviah and who deny that RYBS had any 
kesher with Rav Shneur Kotler is scandalous. I was told by Rav Aaaon Kotler, 
rav Shneuer's son that the family consulted RYBS on all aspects of the 
medical issues involvong Rav Shneuer's zl illness. 
                                             Zeliglaw@aol.com(Steven Brizel)

We discussed that indeed, many Roshei yeshiva could hand pick their sons-in-law,
building their dynasty by process of alliances and promoting illuyim, etc.

Proabably the Rav saw his sons-in-law as heirs to his legacy, R. Ruderman, too. 
etc.

Rich Wolpoe 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


So... That's how you become a Gadol, You marry into 
the Family:)

HM

=====

--- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:
> I can only urge you to study sefer Chasidim with an open mind and
> the
> comments of  R' Reuven Margolios, who gives m'koros in chazal
> (often
> quite obscure ones) for virtually everything R' Yehuda Hachasid has
> to say.
> If you do, I'm not sure you'll find Dr. S. quite so convincing
> anymore. In
> addition, if Dr. S. were right, don't you think a boki b'kol haTora
> kulo like
> Chida or R' Eliezer Papo (both of whom composed extensive works on
> Sefer Chasidim) would have noticed that something was amiss when
> they
> read statements in Sefer Chasidim that don't appear anywhere in the
> mesora, even if they "forgot" about R' Yehuda Hachasid's supposed
> convictions regarding extra-masoratic requirements? Fianlly, that
> R' Yehuda
> Hachasid wasn't accepted by his contemporaries is not dispositive
> of anything. We can observe the same phenomenon with Ramchal and
> others who have our alliegance today.

It's not an issue of being baki (Dr. S is no slouch! and I'm sure
looked at the standard commentaries on Sefer Chasidim).  The issue is
whether one reads the text with a view towards understanding the
historical context.  Dr. S did that (and very cleverly, I might add)
and most achronim do not.  Once you see his analysis, it's pretty
convincing.  I highly recommend the article (printed in the AJS
Review, I think).

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> And according to Dr. Joe Kaminetsky's auto-biography, R. Aaron
> "divorecd" 
> Chinuch Atzmoi from the Aguda davka to be ableto include RYBS.

In that case, it's ironic that Chinuch Atzmai is being seen as a tool
of the RW and therefore Mod-O are setting up a Zionist counterpart.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

FWIW, people I know who knew the late Rav Shmuel Dworkin will tell you he was 
one of the great poskim of the Dor.

I actually was a house guest (age 13-14) of R. Kalman Marlow . My impression is 
that he would qualify as a "gadol".

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Why is it that I never hear about who are the Lubavitcher Gedolim. 
<snip>


HM

On 4 Nov 99, at 14:59, Moshe Feldman wrote:

> --- Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > The real heart of the issue is the extremely low level of self
> > esteem
> > among frum girls (almost across the spectrum) - which show up any
> > time any such tests are done, almost regardless of in which
> > community,
> > or where in the world,  they are done.
> > 
> > The deeper cause of that, IMHO is the linkage between the
> > expectations
> > on frum girls linked with the shidduch system.  Frum girls are
> > brought
> > up to believe (as per Micha) tbat their aim in life is to build a
> > bayis
> > ne'eman b'yisroel.  However, that means they cannot begin on their
> > task
> > in life until they find a shidduch.
> > 
> You say that the problem is across the spectrum.  Yet your
> explanation really covers the RW--i.e., those who choose to be part
> of the "shidduch" system.  That system includes background checks and
> people being set up by people in their parents' generation (and
> needing parental approval to accept a date).

I'm not sure you're correct about that. I know that in my own 
experience, we were set up by a mutual friend and not by a 
professional shadchan, and yet each of us checked the other out 
independently. And I know of plenty of instances in the RW world 
where shiduchim were made other than by professional 
shadchonim.

What is different about the RW system is that often, at least in EY, 
is that often the parents meet to discuss finances before the young 
couple ever meets. That puts restraints on, but does not preclude, 
being set up by members of your own generation.

> In the YU world, people are more likely to be set up by friends. 
> They are not as worried about some minor detail which might slip out
> about them, because their friends will put things in perspective. 

OTOH I am familiar with instances in the YU world (as you call it) 
in which major problems slipped out after the shidduch was a done 
deal, and although the shidduchim went ahead, they might not 
have had the problems been known at the start.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 4 Nov 99, at 22:29, Chana/Heather Luntz wrote:

> In message , Carl M. Sherer <csherer@netvision.net.il> writes
> >So what do we do? How do we make these kids feel at home?
> >
> You may be able, by being sensitive, to ameliorate the situation, but I
> don't think you are going to be able to solve it, as for that a deep
> rooted societal change would be needed.

I thought I was being sensitive by trying to draw them out so they 
would feel at home. I guess I was mistaken....

> Some people on here have made comments (some perhaps half jokingly)
> that they have children to marry off, and hence cannot be seen to be
> espousing certain positions.  You yourself have acknowledged your
> concerns for the shidduch chances of your other children from the
> illness of one.

Yes, I have. Not to mention the prospects of that child himself (who 
bli ayin hara is perfectly healthy to the extent that we have a 
pending shaila about changing our sig lines again!) ad meah 
v'esrim! But that's a problem with the shidduch system (for lack of 
a better word) often having kruhm ideas of what is important and 
what isn't.

> To illustrate the point - my Bnei Brak relatives (who are really very
> nice) once told me off for going out with a shirt that was a bit creased
> (it had come out of a suitcase and had not been ironed). Why?  Because
> she had spoken to her neighbour upstairs for me, and *what if she had
> seen me going out with a crumpled shirt*  the implication being that a
> slightly creased shirt could ruin my shidduch chances.  

Now I would look at something like that and say that if a guy 
wouldn't be interested in you because your shirt was slightly 
creased, he has ridiculous standards and why bother with him. 
Then again, since guys tend to have more options (and not just 
because of learning, but because of societal roles about who can 
and should be how much older than whom), I suppose it's easier 
(or was easier 19 years ago) for me to just brush things off like that.

> Now, part of the reason I am who I am and have the courage to do what
> I do is that my parents (and even grandparents) have never put that kind
> of pressure on me.  My mother always took the attitude that it would
> happen when it would happen - and in fact, one time when I was in
> Israel with my grandparents, and these same relatives were talking
> shidduchim, my grandmother was emphatically saying "she is too young
> yet" (I think I was 25 at the time).   I asked my mother about it
> afterwards, because most people would not have said I was in any way too
> young, and she said she thought it was my grandmother's way of trying to
> protect me from feeling pressured.

As a parent with a daughter approaching shidduch age (and with 
nieces who are at shidduch age), I can tell you that is very difficult 
for a parent to do. Not because you're in such a rush for your child 
to get married off but because in the back of your mind you wonder 
how many opportunities have slipped by. I know parents who are 
perfectly calm until a girl hits 22 or 23 and then all of a sudden 
they're asking people to daven for their daughter to find a shidduch. 
Lo aleinu....

The Gemara in Moed Katan asks how come we allow people to get 
engaged during Chol HaMoed based on the svara of shema 
yikadmenu acher. The answer is that we worry that someone else 
through tfillos could still our bashert. I think when a child starts to 
get on in years relative to when most of her (and even his at some 
point) peers are getting married, that doubt has to creep in.

> But most of your Sem girls are fully within the system - and unlike me,
> they generally do not have, and do not expect to have, any other
> interests in their lives besides their home or any other identity
> besides wife and mother.  

I'm not sure that's right. Yes, we've had BJJ girls who likely have 
those kinds of expectations, but we have also had Michlala and 
Scharfman's girls who may have different expectations. I don't see 
any difference in the confidence level based on which seminary 
they come from. And the reality of Kollel today is that even most of 
the BJJ girls will likely have to do something else besides be wife 
and mother if they and their families expect to have food to eat.

> And don't forget, given this week's parsha, that the model held up to
> Sem girls is not Ya'acov and Rachel but Rivka.  And how do they not know
> that you have not taken it upon yourself to be Eliezer.  Can you
> understand that in a world populated entirely be potential Eliezers,
> leaving the security of the Sem for a shabbas out is an intimidating 
> experience?  On the one hand they need the Eliezers of this world,
> otherwise they will never find their beshert, on the other hand, what if
> they fail the test?  

And here I thought I would be helping them if I tried to play Eliezer 
(which ironically I almost never get to do because most of the 
singles we know are women).

> In this kind of an environment, what you ask for, a way to make these
> girls feel comfortable, is not IMHO fully possible to give.

Well, then I guess we got a pretty high compliment two weeks ago, 
because we got an email from the two Michlala girls who came for 
Shabbos telling us that they were going to recommend us around 
the dorm.... They had never met us before that Shabbos. Two girls 
from my humor lists....

I see your point. I just wish there was something I could do about it.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 4 Nov 99, at 16:47, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> > What do you think of the other extreme: I heard that Breslovers
> > believe that one should read through Shas even if one doesn't
> > understand it because one will be able to understand it in olam haba.
> >  (Can anyone confirm or deny this ascription to Breslovers?)
> >
> > Kol tuv,
> > Moshe
> 
> It ain't just Breslovers. The Ba'al haTanya in his Shulchan Aruch, R'
> Yisroel Salanter and the Chofetz Chaim to name a few.

I think it's actually an explicit Gemara (or somewhere in the 
Rishonim) in Nida (33?) in the same place where the Gemara talks 
about how the malachim teach an ubar kol haTorah kula before he 
comes out.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 11/4/99 6:41:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> FWIW, people I know who knew the late Rav Shmuel Dworkin will tell you he 
was 
> 
>  one of the great poskim of the Dor.
>  
A slight correction his name was Rav Zalman Shimon Z"L.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

*********************


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