Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 097

Tuesday, November 2 1999

• Re: Catch up learning
• Re: Conspicuous consumption, Luxuries, Tznius [was What Else]
• Re: They don't want to convert us: halevay
• Bekiyut -- Who needs it?
• Re[2]: Mincha Gedola?
• Re: Re: Catch up learning
• Re: Bekiyut -- Who needs it?
• Agudah and Evangelical Christians
• Re: Bekiyut -- Who needs it?
• Re: Catch up learning
• Re: Bekiyut -- Who needs it?
• Re: Tephillin Dates
• Lubavitch/secular education
• Re: kidra chaysa
• Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• Re: Catch up learning
• Re: Friendly fundamentalists
• AZ versus kefirah?
• Re: Friendly fundamentalists
• Re: Fraudulent Curricula

>  1. Don't poskim(and the gemora) have different ideas as to when to start 
>  learning gemora and mishna? Why are these halachot/reccomendations ignored?

This too is discussed by Poskim, while there are some who hold that even 
today we should follow the Mishne in Avos Ben Chomeish etc. there are those 
that hold that today that everything is in print is different (see S"A Horav 
first Perek of Hil. Talmud Torah).

>  2. Why is learning a competetive(result oriented) contest? (I know we've 
>  discussed this before but I feel the need to mention it anyway:-))

Kinas Sofrim Tarbeh Chochmah, (Losid Lovoi when Ki Kulom Yeidu Oisee there 
will be "Ein Sham Loi Kinah" (Rambam end of Hil. Mlochim) perhaps even Kinas 
Sofrim.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 10/31/99 8:41:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
david.nadoff@bfkpn.com writes:

<< I didn't realize any of my correspondents were in the frum wedding industry
 and I certainly didn't mean to give offense. I do feel there is a powerful
 industry-
 wide interest in oppulent simchos, but that is not to say that any given
 musician,
 photographer, planner or caterer is doing anything wrong or improperly
 motivated. >>

You didn't offend me. I never said that restraint was a bad thing. I do, 
however, feel that it must be handled in a responsible way that takes into 
account the economic impact of any kinds of proclamations. 
The Jewish music industry in NYC is still reeling from a ban on Bands in the 
Williamsburg community. Many musicians were thrown out of work, and many 
others have been badly hurt. At no time did the Satmar Rebbe consult with the 
Musicains Union, the bands that were working in his community, or indeed any 
of the individual musicians who were to be affected, to see if perhaps some 
kind of special rates could be set, or standard band sizes that would limit 
costs for families that needed financial help. 

Jordan 

In a message dated 10/31/99 11:20:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bergez01@med.nyu.edu writes:

<< As a universalist I would love to believe that, as a liberal I'm 
skeptical, and as a Jew
 raised in Kentucky I know for a fact this is false. Ask the Southern Baptist 
convention whether
 they consider attempts at conversion "socially unacceptable" and let me know
 if you come away without an armload of pamphlets...
  >>

This is my point exactly. I remember hearing R' Raphael Grossman, Rav of 
Baron Hirsch Synagogue in Memphis, give a lecture, where he pointed out to 
the more fundamentalist Jews from the North, that they would be singing a 
different tune if they lived in the South and heard the radio broadcasts of 
southern Baptist preachers.

Jordan     

>>See Gemara end of Hoirius, Sinai Veokeir Horim, ( Boir Sud vs. Mayon 
Hamisgabeir), and keeping in mind that Divrei Torah Aniyim Bmokom Echod Vashirim
Bmokom Acheir, so Bekius adds even into Iyun, (that is in addition to Eizehu 
Talmid Chochom... and Bar Pachsi etc. etc.)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind<<



Echoing much of R. Eli Clarke's sentiments:

When I was in Ner Yisroel (circa 1967), our rebbe told us that BEFORE printing, 
there was a definite advantage to a Sinai over an Okeir Horim, but since the 
advent of printing, Seofrim could close the "Sinai" gap and it was our taks to 
become more of an Okeir Horim.  Indeed this hashkofo seemed to be the very 
essence of the Litvisher approach in general.

RYBS was by reputation very opposed to Bekius.

Perhaps from a  very high perspective, Torah needs all kinds of specialists, and
the Sephardim have filled the Bekius quote and it's up to Ashkenzim to fill the 
Iyyum/Amkus quota.

The fact is that with Seforim such as the Beit Yosef have made first hand 
research into somewhat "obscure" Rishonim (eg Trumas haDeshen) largely 
unnecessary. In effect, the Beit Yosef has eliminated hours of Tedious research 
by providing us with direct quotes from numerous Rishonim (often the Gemoro and 
Rashi, too!). It would seem redundant to replicate HIS talents as an 
encylcopedist, why not simply build upon what he already did.  Certainly Kaf 
Hachaim is similiar in that he brings an astonishing wide variety of deios. 
Meiri is along the same lines.

I also recall besheim R. Shmuel Yaakov Weinberg ZTL that if one needed the 
Yedios from shas, the best technique was to learn the Rambam's Yad.  I heard 
that one of his talmidim (circa 1960's) took 2 years off of Gemeoro and went 
thru the Yad cover to cover.  IOW, why learn Shas directly for bekios, the 
Rambam will give you all of the "background" you need as far as concepts, THEN 
learn Shas focusing on Iyyun/Amkus.  Learning Shas directly for bekius would 
take about 7.5 years (uing daf yomi) and the Rambam about 2! Think of this as 
another shortcut provided by an encyclopedic Sefardi Gadol.  Every yeshiva 
bochur can get 7.5 years of yedios in just 2!  (of course the yad itself nca be 
learned b'iyyun and RSY Weinberg himself did this very Friday!).

As far as the yeshivihse/Litvish/Ahskenaz world goes, bekius is mostly a means 
to an end - and perhaps a tip of our fedoras is in order to those Sefardic 
Seforim that have made it so readily avaialbe to us.

Rich Wolpoe

And it seems well established that in order to make a minyan, we can be a bit 
flxible about the zmanim; eg davening maariv after mincho w/o waiting for 
tzeis...

Biyechidus might indeed be a different issue..

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


I'm not sure that there is. But as someone in the business world for many years,
I can tell you that it is generally a lot easier to get out of the office for 
Mincha at lunch time than it is to get out b'zman. <snip>
-- Carl

     >>I'm saying that an American iluy can almost never catch up to the 
     level of bekiyus that the Israeli gets as a child. That has nothing to 
     do with secular studies. It has to do with language, and the age and 
     level at which the Israeli starts out learning Mishna and Gemara. For 
     example, in our neighborhood, there are constantly contests for even 
     the youngest kids to learn Mishnayos by heart. There are constantly 
     competitive tests in Halacha and Tanach that are given on a citywide 
     scale. There are constant (nightly) learning sdorim for kids who are 
     10 and 11 and 12 with prizes for showing up regularly.>>
     
     This is done in some communities in Chutz La'aretz also, although 
     probably not on the same scale.  Have you ever been to Brooklyn?
     
     >>>>Are you willing to say that to R. Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg's 
     face?>>>>
     
     >>I don't think he went to college, but that's beside the point. 
     Although he was born in America, his training was in Europe (R. 
     Scheinberg learned in Mir - the town - not just the Yeshiva).>>
     
     If I remember correctly from "All For The Boss," he learned in Yeshiva 
     University and graduated from college.
     
     >>>>What about R. Hershel Schachter?>>>>
     
     >>I didn't say there weren't exceptions. But that just proves the 
     rule.>>
     
     I thought we were talking about iluyim who are the exceptions.
     
     >>>>When I was in YU there were a few iluyim who gained tremendous 
     bekius despite their secular studies.>>>>
     
     >>I don't know when you were in YU or whom you are referring to, but 
     the odds are that there is no comparison between whomever you knew at 
     YU and the real iluyim in EY. When I was in Yeshiva here, the legend 
     was about a guy in Itri who at the age of 19 had been through Shas 
     seven times. Not many guys in the States can make that claim.>>
     
     That is pretty impressive.  I am young enough that none of my chaverim 
     could possibly have made much of a name for themselves.  However, one 
     close friend recently published an English sefer that is full of 
     overwhelming bekius in acharonim and poskim - The Right and the Good 
     by Daniel Z. Feldman.  I know someone else who finished Shas mishnayos 
     100 times by the time he got married.  If you would talk to some the 
     rebbeim in YU, such as R. Mordechai Willig or R. Mayer Twersky, you 
     will see that American iluyim who go to college can still be 
     top-knotch talmidei chachomim.  You might also want to talk to R. 
     Aharon Lichtenstein who is now an Israeli but made his way through the 
     American yeshiva and university systems.
     
     >>What I also said is that the chutznikim have an ability to overcome 
     their natural disadvantage because of the freshness with which they 
     often arrive at Yeshiva here. I believe that freshness is the result 
     of suddenly having the burden of secular studies lifted when the 
     chutznik arrives here.>>
     
     I think that you are now referring to those who are not iluyim.  Avira 
     de'ara machkim - I'm not disagreeing with that.  The lack of 
     distractions from learning such as secular studies, TVs, and movies 
     also have a lot to do with their success in learning.  The fact that 
     the ONLY adult influence on the bochurim is their rebbeim is also a 
     large factor (i.e. no parents).  However, I know talmidei chachomim, 
     my rebbe muvhak included, who had great success in learning despite 
     spending no or very little time in Eretz Yisrael and going to college. 
      Iluyim can do it.  It's the regular Joes who can't.

     >>I wonder if it is possible to define what the basic level of bekiyut
     that a talmid hakaham should have or aspire to.>>
     
     I think the Rema defines a Talmid Chacham while discussing who is 
     exempt from local taxes for protection.  He says that a talmid chacham 
     has to be familiar with most of Shas.  I think the Chazon Ish 
     discusses this in his Emunah Uvitachon.  Sorry, I don't have the exact 
     mareh makom handy.

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> I think we should consider the trade-offs:
> 
> OTOH a liberal, but amoral, G-dless society,
> tolerant and full of pritzus
> 
> and 
> 
> OTOH a conservative society where proselytizing is
> ok, and so is tznius, and 
> prayer, and a more G-d oriented hashkofo...
> 
> If you think that THE biggest threat to our neshomos
> is Je... then you will side
> wit hthe liberals.
> 
> If you think that THE biggest threat to our neshomos
> is atheism, you might find 
> value in joingin with Xtians.
> 
> I guess the bottom line is this: which is worse? 
> Avodo Zoro
> or
> Kofeir bakol (iow a belief in NO G-d whatsoever)

I don't believe your dichotomy is accurate.
Furthermore, as I explained in one of my earlier
posts, proselytizing is NOT ok anymore, at least not
in the mainstream denominations, except for Southern
Baptists. It is not necessarily an "either or"
situation. It is not a choice between Avodah Zorah and
Kofer Bakol when one is only POLITCALLY aligning
oneself with  a Christian ( who, according to most
Rishonim is not an Oved Avodah Zorah as Goyim are not
commanded against Shtuf, i.e. the Trinity).

Also, I am not necessarily advocating joining up with
them, or not joining up with them.  I am only
advocating thoughtful reassessment of our longstanding
policy of treating them like pariahs.  Perhaps we
should continue to do so. Perhaps not. I don't know.
But it is certainly worth while examining it, and if
possible joining in where our interests meet, such as
in the area of the moral decay of society. 

If I am not mistaken (and some one please correct me
if I am wrong) Agudah has already testified in
congress right alongside the Religious Right on
matters of mutual concern.

HM


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In a message dated 11/2/99 1:25:33 PM EST, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> BEFORE printing, 
>  there was a definite advantage to a Sinai over an Okeir Horim, but since 
the  
>  advent of printing, Seofrim could close the "Sinai" gap and it was our 
taks to 
>  become more of an Okeir Horim.  

See S"A Horav Hi. Talmud Torah 2:3 that Vshinantom that requires Al Tigamgeim 
but to answer Miyad is relevent even after printing, if he needs to be Mayein 
for answer, (as to the Rambam Yodua the Shitas HoRosh and what the Beis Yosef 
writes that the Rambam wrote it for those who are Bokee Bshas)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 11/2/99 1:00:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Yzkd@aol.com 
writes:

<< 
 >  1. Don't poskim(and the gemora) have different ideas as to when to start 
 >  learning gemora and mishna? Why are these halachot/reccomendations 
ignored?
 
 This too is discussed by Poskim, while there are some who hold that even 
 today we should follow the Mishne in Avos Ben Chomeish etc. there are those 
 that hold that today that everything is in print is different (see S"A Horav 
 first Perek of Hil. Talmud Torah).
 
 >  2. Why is learning a competetive(result oriented) contest? (I know we've 
 >  discussed this before but I feel the need to mention it anyway:-))
 
 Kinas Sofrim Tarbeh Chochmah, (Losid Lovoi when Ki Kulom Yeidu Oisee there 
 will be "Ein Sham Loi Kinah" (Rambam end of Hil. Mlochim) perhaps even Kinas 
 Sofrim.
 
 Kol Tuv
 
 Yitzchok Zirkind >>
As I said, we've been down this route before.  In my mind the real question 
is net,net are we increasing or decreasing the total love/ability to learn by 
making it macho to learn mishnayot at age 3 and making learning into a 
win/lose proposition(at least in western society , when you have contests , 
that's the inherent message). 

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 11/2/99 12:50:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Yzkd@aol.com 
writes:

<< See Gemara end of Hoirius, Sinai Veokeir Horim, ( Boir Sud vs. Mayon 
 Hamisgabeir), and keeping in mind that Divrei Torah Aniyim Bmokom Echod 
 Vashirim Bmokom Acheir, so Bekius adds even into Iyun, (that is in addition 
 to Eizehu Talmid Chochom... and Bar Pachsi etc. etc.)
 
 Kol Tuv
 
 Yitzchok Zirkind
  >>
I seem to recall Sherlock Holmes saying that he did not need to know the 
distance from the earth to the sun, only where to look it up if he needed it.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

--- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/2/99 9:41:54 AM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> << 
>  
>  > Just a curiosity check - assuming that one was
>  > nichshol in this area (Teffilin dates), would 
>  > we advise him(or her) not to daven the next
> morning
>  > (or for him not to put on 
>  > tfillin).  I'd suggest that many of us are
> nichshol
>  > in some area 
>  
>  I don't get it.  Just because you do one aveira
>  doesn't mean you are prevented from doing other
>  mitzvos.  The only time you should not be doing
>  mitzvos is when doing them in the context of an
> Aveira
>  would constitute a Chilul HaShem, (e.g. wearing a
>  yamulke while robbing a bank) >>
> I agree -- so why would people be so taken aback by
> the occurrence of tfillin 
> dates, if they did occur? It sounds like we should
> be more taken aback by one 
> Jew defrauding another while wearing a kippa(or
> hat:-)), if this did occur.

I agree. I was merely pointing out that the
sociological phenomenon of having pre-marital sex (RL)
did and probably does still exist amongst our own
Orthodox bretheren.  Whether Teffilin are brought or
not, is besides the point. The question we should all
be asking is how common is it, and does it cut accross
the RW/LW spectrum? Or is it the exclusive terrain of
the Left?

HM


=====

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The attitude of Lub. towards secular education is much more complex and 
less monolithic than what has been suggested here by some corresondents. 
Some specific points:

1. On an individual basis, the Rebbe when he was alive did sometimes 
advise people to go to college. His advice was one-to-one, fitting advice 
to an individual, recognizing their personal situations. 

2. Lubavitch schools around the world have varying policies- some have 
more and some have less secular studies. This is determined, at least in 
part, by whether the student body comes from children of long-time Lub's 
or from children of very recent BT's. 

3.  Here in Detroit there is a Lubavitch 
effort to set up an accredited university (offering vocational-type BA's 
in accounting, information systems, etc) and they intend to have 
accreditation from the same body that accredits the U of Michigan. From 
what I can tell and what I have observed here, the Lub. attitude in 
general towards higher ed is much more pragmatic and case-by-case than 
has been implied.
  

4. The primary fact which distinguishes Lub. education from the rest of 
the Orth. world is that the "highest" education/career track is that 
leading towards becoming one of the sh'luchim (or spouse of same). There 
are very very few Lubavitchers who are in kollel after marriage (perhaps 
less than a hundred world-wide).  The shluchim are the opposite of the 
stereotype isolated/insulated kollelnik (you would be too if you were 
suddenly sent, say, to Fargo ND). 


Finally, may I suggest that the tone of some of the discussion re these 
matters has been such that the darchei noam police have been paying 
attention... 


__________________________________________________________________
Claude Schochet				claude@math.wayne.edu	
					www.math.wayne.edu/~claude
Mathematics Department			313-577-3177	office phone		
Wayne State University		    	313-577-7596	department fax
Detroit, MI 48202
 

In a message dated 11/1/99 7:50:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
nwitty@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< 
 Fourth, as the discussion evolved, yourself or others left me with an
 impression that this hoary--albeit to my mind despicable--custom may
 actually be assur in hilchos shabbos.  I was fishing for an articulation
 that addressed the issue and demonstrated the *heter*.
 
 "However, feel free to come for Shabbos anytime you want, and I will do what
 I
 can to convert you to the dark side. (I make a great Cholent)"
 
 Gosh! How kind of you! >>

Actually, if you saw me, you would realize you do know me. I hope I didn't 
imply that it was assur to raid the pot, only if it was a K'derah Chai. 
Otherwise, I would be in big trouble.
As for the invitation, anytime. I live in Teaneck, that hotbed of flaming 
moderation and passionate ambivalence.

Jordan 

It's a valid point.

Counterpoint: at what time does one stop shopping for "2nd opinions"?  IOW, if 
any chumro is POSSIBLY based on a Taus, and a Taus can undo a "done deal" you 
have opened up a possibly sliperey slope pandora's box.

EG, let's posit that the issue of kovod hatzibbur in excluding women from aliyos
was based upon a socioligcally flawed version of women.  So, in effect, can we 
defacto repeal the custom of not calling womento to the Torah because of our 
incredibly superior sociological knowledge?!

Or do we say, even if the premise is {apparently?} flawed, we base our traidtion
on precedent and we accept the weight of 1,500 years of practice as having 
halahcic value?

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
>>

The question is whether practice can evolve in ways that are contrahalachic. 
Yes, halachah should never be rolled back. However, if it turns out that the 
practice followed by K'lal Yisrael is outside of halachah, I would say that 
it should. Which is why I keep on comparing the notion to minhag ta'us. If we
could show that current practice is only justifiable via a ta'us (and not just 
that it happened to be justified that way) why shouldn't we consider the 
possibility that the practice is outside of halachah?

This again would justifying only rolling back mistaken heteirim. Mistaken 
chumros (in the few cases where no kulah is involved as well) could never 
be outside of halachah -- at worst, shava alei chaticha di'isura or lifnim 
mishuras hadin.

-mi<<

In a message dated 11/2/99 1:37:44 PM EST, Joelirich@aol.com writes:

> As I said, we've been down this route before.  In my mind the real question 
>  is net,net are we increasing or decreasing the total love/ability to learn 
> by 
>  making it macho to learn mishnayot at age 3 and making learning into a 
>  win/lose proposition(at least in western society , when you have contests 
, 
>  that's the inherent message). 
 
At age 3 I don't know, but Kbar Shis Kbar Sheva Sofa Lei Ktura, as to 
contasts it is obviously the job of the Mchaneich to judge his taalmidim what 
will bring the best results. (in many places these contasts are extra 
curricula).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind  

--- Sholem Berger <bergez01@med.nyu.edu> wrote:

> we cannot define our
> public relationships
> with right-wing Xtians based on whether they want to
> convert us. This 
> standard is way too lax. (Just say "no" and you've
> won a Jewish friend!)
> Rather, we part company with the Pat Robertsons and
> Ralph Reeds of this world on 
> much more basic issues. E.g.: "voluntary" (read:
> everybody except
> the Jewish kid) prayers to Yoshke in the classroom.
> Where do you
> think Robertson and Reed stand on this one, hm?

What you say rings true to me. I'm just not as certain
as you are because, even though I have never
personally met either Pat nor Ralph, I know someone
who knows them quite well and he would disagrre with
you.  I must admit my own personal bias, however, that
my impression of Pat is somewhat filled with
suspicion. But that could be due to years of
indoctrination against these people.

HM

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>btw, I am curious to know what the classic texts say about Avodo Zoro vs. a 
>totally G-dless POV.

>Rich Wolpoe

kol hakoyfer beavoyde zore nekra yehudi (Megila, I think, 13?).  I've forgotten the sugya, but it
seems this gives at least one side of the story:  being in opposition to a"z is sufficient (but not necessary?) for (a kind of) Jewishness.  But OTOH the term "yehudi" probably assumes belief in God, too.  

As to your (RW's) dichotomy between liberal pritses and right-wing Godliness: would that it were so simple!  For every case of avowedly Christian Godliness I can match it with a case of "liberal" hesed which, while not sponsored by a religious institution, is probably pretty often staffed/organized by people who do believe in God. And on the other hand, every case of liberal moral dissolution can be paired (sad to say) with a moral tragedy of similar magnitude among the Xtians. Lots of (outwardly) religious folk were quite vocal in Wyoming before the homosexual teenager was murdered -- and mysteriously silent when it came time to testify to the killing...

I guess the point is that mayles and khisroynes for the neshome are found at every turn in our variegated society, and the ideological shingle you see hanging can mean very little once you get inside the front door.  

Sholem Berger

In a message dated 11/2/99 9:56:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
bergez01@med.nyu.edu writes:

<< Look, I hate to hak on this (I deleted the last digest so I can't
 quote HM's last post), but we cannot define our public relationships
 with right-wing Xtians based on whether they want to convert us. This 
 standard is way too lax. (Just say "no" and you've won a Jewish friend!)
 Rather, we part company with the Pat Robertsons and Ralph Reeds of this 
world on 
 much more basic issues. E.g.: "voluntary" (read: everybody except
 the Jewish kid) prayers to Yoshke in the classroom. Where do you
 think Robertson and Reed stand on this one, hm? >>

I didn't even get into these issues, but of course they are totally true. As 
a former Public School student, I can tell you with absolute certainty that 
the Christianization of the School System the the Right wing advocates is 
extremely dangerous. The token Chanuka mention does nothing to make the 
students feel any more at ease. Having grown up after 1962, one would think I 
didn't have such a stark experience. But rest assured, in Monsey, which had a 
very large non-Orthodox Jewish population, the P.S. system was geared 
entirely towards the observance of Christmas. Imagine what it would be like 
after the Christian Right gets through with it!
Most Frum Jews couldn't conceive of what its like knowing the words to 
Christmas Carols better than Shma. Welcome to the ugly world.

Jordan 

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> Tad slanderous here!
> 
> Laws require schooling throught the tenth grade,
> they do not dictate
> curricula.
> 
> There is, now, a prohibition on opening Boys' HS's
> with Limudei Chol in the
> township of Lakewood (that is, for those affiliated
> with the Yeshiva
> community). This is done completely aboveboard and
> legally. The children
> continue schooling, just not schooling with Limudei
> Chol.

I didn't intend slander anyone. I don't think Lakewood
would do anything fraudulent.  But, YOU KNOW THINGS
LIKE THIS EXIST in other, smaller upstart
institutions. 

As to your other point, prohibiting limudei chol in a
Lakewood HS...  OUTRAGEOUS!  Instead of dealing with
the problem of Yeshivalite with no education beyond
high school trying to find a parnassah relatively late
in life in a society that is increasingly dependant on
education, we are disallowing our children the ability
to choose a parnassah even more by further
undercutting their education!!!  It's a Himmel
Geshrei!

Who is going to support these young kids when they
become adults?

HM

=====

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