Avodah Mailing List

Volume 44: Number 7

Sun, 01 Feb 2026

• 1. Easy Tractate for Beginners (Sholom Simon)
• 2. HKBH does not fashion commandments that might cause people to sin (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 3. Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society Spring 1997 -Talking During Tfila" (Joel Rich)
• 4. Re: Easy Tractate for Beginners (mgl...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: Normal People Don't Care About Those Things (Ben Bradley)
• 6. Re: Normal People Don't Care About Those Things (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: longevity (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Easy Tractate for Beginners (Micha Berger)

I have a near 70-yr old friend at shul -- he's a senior (he's "on the path"
and while he's extremely smart (Ph.D. in Math) he doesn't have any
classical Jewish education.  He wants to dip his toe in the waters and read
an Artscroll tractate of Gemara for the first time.  He had picked Me'ila,
because it was short, and found it too hard/esoteric for him, and found it
presumed way too much background knowledge. (Yeah, no kidding!)

Does anybody have suggestions for a different one?  Please note, this is a
question related to kiruv.  I'm not looking for an answer like "well, he
should know Berachos/Shabbos/Bava etc".  My primary goal is not what he
"should" know, but, rather, to find something that he will find engaging
enough that he will enjoy the learning.  (I'm a firm believer that when
somebody says "I want to learn, where should I start?" that the answer is
usually "whatever interests you").

I was thinking perhaps Sotah, or Beitza?  Perhaps R"H or Taanis or Moed
Katan?

Thoughts on this?

Thanks,

-- Sholom
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The Gemara Yuma 67b
brings differing opinions re the YK scapegoat's remains being permitted or
prohibited
Rava observes it is most likely, and that is how we Pasken
that they are permitted because
HKBH does not fashion commandments that might cause people to sin.

Can someone explain
the Nachal Eisan is prohibited from use,
this is the place where the Eglah Arufah is decapitated
which is the procedure following an unresolved murder between two cities

presumably it must be fenced off and marked as a no-go zone

Why might the same procedure not suffice for the location where the
scapegoat's remains are located?

What makes Rava consider this to be a situation which might prompt people
to sin?


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society Spring 1997 -Talking During
Tfila"


Any ideas how to get a copy? I left messages at a # given to me by RJJ but
never got a response
KT
Joel Rich
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RSS: 

I have a near 70-yr old friend at shul -- he's a senior (he's "on the path"
and while he's extremely smart (Ph.D. in Math) he doesn't have any
classical Jewish education.  He wants to dip his toe in the waters and read
an Artscroll tractate of Gemara for the first time.  He had picked Me'ila,
because it was short, and found it too hard/esoteric for him, and found it
presumed way too much background knowledge. (Yeah, no kidding!)

 

Does anybody have suggestions for a different one?  Please note, this is a
question related to kiruv.  I'm not looking for an answer like "well, he
should know Berachos/Shabbos/Bava etc".  My primary goal is not what he
"should" know, but, rather, to find something that he will find engaging
enough that he will enjoy the learning.  (I'm a firm believer that when
somebody says "I want to learn, where should I start?" that the answer is
usually "whatever interests you").

 

MYG:

I suggest Artscroll Berachos vol. 2 ? it starts with the fourth perek,
about davening, and since he?s a shul-goer, he?ll have more background and
context available to him than probably anywhere else. And there?s plenty of
agadata that will keep him engaged. The next three perakim are more
technical, but it?s still lifecycle things that he?s likely not as
unfamiliar with. And then there?s a bunch a agadita again in the last
perek. 

 

By the time he finishes, he?ll have enough background to go back to the volume 1 and enjoy it, and then make a siyum on the whole mesechta. 

 

Hatzlachah,

MYG

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I appreciate the point that a concept can exist before a word is coined to
describe it, and that's usually the course of events. But the use of the
term orthodox to describe people who lived before the era it came into use
does not work well, I think. Even it you want to apply it to Mendelsohn,
was the Rambam an orthodox rabbi? Was Rabbi Akiva? They have the properties
you'd describe as orthodox once the term came into use, but surely there
you'd consider it an anachronistic application.
That's quite apart from the troublesome roots of the term, I'd much prefer
we found a better term altogether for Torah Judaism in all its forms and
return Orthodox to the Eastern churches whence it was misappropriated by
the early Reform movement.
________________________________
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Sent: 22 January 2026 02:32
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Cc: Ben Bradley <bdbradle...@hotmail.com>; Ilana Elzufon <ilanaso...@gmail.com>; Meir Shinnar <chide...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Normal People Don't Care About Those Things

On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 04:59:40PM +0200, Ilana Elzufon via Avodah wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 9:26AM Meir Shinnar via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> > 1. the first person I know who is explicit about actions being primary is
> > Mendelson. While he is viewed now by many as Reform,in his lifetime he was
> > viewed by most to be Orthodox.

> To the best of my knowledge, Rav Moshe Mendelssohn himself was most
> definitely Orthodox (although that term may be a bit anachronistic?), even
> if his ideas later became important in the development of Reform...

So he was Orthodopractic, and more people don't bother considering
someone with heterodoxical beliefs alone outside the camp. Which is
where this discussion's subject line came from.

Nor do I personally think that believing heresy always makes one
halachically someone we must treat like a min, apikoreis or kofer, and
for that matter whether or not we assume the heavenly court will treat
him as one -- I cannot assume that nebich an apiqoreis "ein lo cheileq
le'olam haba", although the Rambam (in a very Aristotilian move) did.

But since thebelieds themselves now fit in R, not O, I stand by theidea
that the notion that the Torah only requires and revelation only
transmitted orthopraxy is from Reform, or if you prefer proto-Reform.

--


> term was yet in use...

Sanhedrin is a Greek term, but I don't think it's anachronistic to
simply use the term for any Beis Din haGadol, even those that preceded
Galus Bavel.

Similarly, I have no problem using the word Jew for someone who is
subject to the covenants of Sinai and Arvos Moav even before "Yehudi"
was applied beyond sheivet Yehudah (Esther 2:5, Mordechai is described
as a Yehudi and a Benjaminite), even to someone who lived in Malkhis
Yisrael.

The concept a word was coined to refer to can exist before the word.

I have said here that O is a property a movement can retain, not
a movement or an invention, but an adjective. Summary on my take about
what O means: https://michaberger.substack.com/p/orthodoxy
(Copied from a Mi Yodeya [Jewish Stack exchange] post)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger                 The true measure of a man
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   is how he treats someone
Author: Widen Your Tent      who can do him absolutely no good.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Samuel Johnson
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On Sat, Jan 31, 2026 at 08:38:38PM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
> From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
> Sent: 22 January 2026 02:32
>> Sanhedrin is a Greek term, but I don't think it's anachronistic to
>> simply use the term for any Beis Din haGadol, even those that preceded
>> Galus Bavel.

>> Similarly, I have no problem using the word Jew for someone who is
>> subject to the covenants of Sinai and Arvos Moav even before "Yehudi"
>> was applied beyond sheivet Yehudah (Esther 2:5, Mordechai is described
>> as a Yehudi and a Benjaminite), even to someone who lived in Malkhis
>> Yisrael.

> I appreciate the point that a concept can exist before a word is coined
> to describe it, and that's usually the course of events. But the use of
> the term orthodox to describe people who lived before the era it came
> into use does not work well, I think. Even it you want to apply it to
> Mendelsohn, was the Rambam an orthodox rabbi? Was Rabbi Akiva? They have
> the properties you'd describe as orthodox once the term came into use,
> but surely there you'd consider it an anachronistic application.

Why would you have thought that I "surely" would? I would have no
problem calling Moshe Rabbeinu "Orthodox".

After all, whatever feature the Ashkenazi movements that call themselves
Orthodox that Sepharadim saw in themselves as well as our communities
ensed up in proximity is a an attitude toward Beris Sinai and Torah
that we believe is a direct evolution of the same process Moshe Rabbeinu
gave us. (As crippled by the things we lost along the way, like the
Sanhedrin.) If you believe that Ravina veRav Ashi were on the chain
that started with Moshe Rabbeinu, and RMF was as well in ways that
<pick your favorite non-O leader here> isn't, then why not use the
label O to describe that? Loyalty to the dynamics of TSBP that are
given within TSBP vs not.

>> I have said here that O is a property a movement can retain, not
>> a movement or an invention, but an adjective. Summary on my take about
>> what O means: https://michaberger.substack.com/p/orthodoxy

Either Moshe's teachings too shared that property, or O is OTD
and not "Torah Judaism".

As I had hoped was clear from my post, my problem with the word O is
specifically that it means too many things depending on context. In
sociological conversation it is a kind of self-identity. In halachic
discussion it can be used either as the set of Jews who aren't apiqorsim,
minim or koferim, the set of Jews who don't believe heresy and yet still
excluding people who for other reasons don't qualify as apiqursim, minim,
or koferim, or even a third possible set -- the Jews whose beliefs
are capable of maintaining Orthopraxy. (Andin all three cases, that
would entail belief that a Jew is supposed to try to be observant.) In
hashkafic context we get into who is a Yisrael" in the sense of "Kol
Yisrael yeish lahem cheileq". Etc...

Historically these have been pretty correlated sets, and it's more
fora like this than real life in which the gray areas loom.

I would want to see the sociological category broadened. I think Chabad
has a great model for making Jews feel welcome regardless of personal
belief or practice without sacrificing any clarity on what their party
line is. that often. I would like to see more of use doing similarly.

Especially as C implodes we need to foster a rebirth of the O affiliated
non-observant community. Because otherwise the newly homeless C congregant
will drift further from our ideals. But that's not my main motive,
just a cause for feeling an urgency.

Yes, "Orthodox" is a horrible term to have ended up with. Even if
it hadn't been polluted by having too many different usages.
But what are our other choices? What positive self-description do
we have that non-O would agree they don't. Do you think they don't
view themselves as following the Torah. C considers itself a
halachic movement, albeit for a different bredth of ideas about how
halakhah ought to work.

I don't think there is an easy path to a better label, and we should
simply live with what we have.

And I'm skipping the question of do we need labels at all, because that
is thread by itself.

> So he was Orthodopractic, and more people don't bother considering
> someone with heterodoxical beliefs alone outside the camp. Which is
> where this discussion's subject line came from.

And my point about Mendelssohn saying that revalation only contains
values and actions, not beliefs, is that it was the one thing he said
that fails most of my list of uses of the label Orthodox. Yes, he would
still be sociologically O, and I wouldn't have wanted to drum him out
of our community, had I been a contemporary (who by some magic still
had the opinions my actual life left me with).

But this particular idea pardoxically means that revelation doesn't
include belief in that revelation of those actions, either. Which makes
observance an unjustified act of will. It violated both of my "halachic
definition" discussions.

And in that sense, rather than the sociological one, I agree with R's
choice of calling him a major step along the path to their existence.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   I do, then I understand." - Confucius
Author: Widen Your Tent      "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

On Wed, Jan 28, 2026 at 05:47:46AM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Interesting thought from R' Steinman quoted by R' Rimon. The reason life
> expectancy has gone up so much in Israel is that in pre-moshiach times we
> will be fighting esav who excelled at respect for parents and so in order
> to defeat him we must more excel in that mitzvah. The increased longevity
> and the needs of aged parents give us this opportunity.

Excepts Esav's descendents and conceptual descendants are also enjoying
longer life speans.

Which to me would mean that either they are also beefing up on kibud
av va'eim, or
they abandoned that aspect of Edom's culture, and thus we have nothing
to worry about anyway.


Personally, I have a hard time believing Edom survived Sancheirev
any better than the 10 shevatim (Malkhus Yisrael and Shim'on) did.

I have more haskalishe thoughts about what Chazal meant by identifying
Rome with Edom:

1- Herod was Idumian, ie a member of the nation that settled Edom's land
after Sancheirev moved Eisav's descendents from there.

And it is likely that since the populations overlapped, there was elements
of Edom's culture that became part of Idumian culture.

2- Esav wanted the perks of being bekhor without the achrayus of continuing
Yitzchaq's message and mission.

Rome too thought they can build an empire for their own benefit and
not out of a sense of responsibility to the peoples they conquered.
R Shimon's approach to Rome rather than R Yehudah bar Ilai's:
    Everything they built, they built for themselves. They built market
    places in order to place prostitutes there; bathhouses, in order to
    refresh themselves; and bridges, in order to collect taxes.


(In modern terms, to be Edom and Malkhus haRisha'ah is to be a Western
Imperialist. ;-P <duck-n-run>!)


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 We are great, and our foibles are great,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and therefore our troubles are great --
Author: Widen Your Tent      but our consolations will also be great.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabbi AY Kook

On Wed, Jan 28, 2026 at 10:26:27AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
> I have a near 70-yr old friend at shul -- he's a senior (he's "on the path"
> and while he's extremely smart (Ph.D. in Math) he doesn't have any
> classical Jewish education...

1- I would recommend Sukkah ch. 3, "Lulav haGazul". It touches on a number
of topics that recur elsewhere, deals both in ritual and civil kinds of
halakhos, the Aramaic isn't that difficult.*

For someone who is bright but simply uninformed, it could be a fun choice.

2- Not a full topic to learn, but for a fun (for a mathematician)
half-hour:

R Eliezer / Dr Leon Ehrenpreis was a famous enough mathematician
that I would be surprised if your friend hadn't heard of him.
He took a sabbatical (Temple U) and taught some fun courses as well
as calculus in YU. Aside from making heavy use of our beis medrash
in addition to MTJ. (REE got private semichah from RMF.)

Anyway, REE started calculus with Sukkah 8a, the minimum size for
a circular Sukkah, and the use of something fairly close to limits
and an integral to justify the formula for the area of a circle.
More on that story in my hesped
https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2010/08/17/r-dr-eliezer-ehrenpreis-zl

--


"Cheder", in that sense that even though the student body was about
as yeshivish as Queens got in the 1970s, the Rabbeim came in from
WIlliamburg.

The school was run by R Eliyahu Yehoshua Geldzahler. He had us learning
Berakhos in 5th grade, just around where RMYG recommended in his
reply. (Although there was no Schottenstein Berakhos vol II yet. ArtScroll
was an invitation company that first came out with their first sefer,
Megillas Esther, during this story.)

REYG's somewhat novel choice for 6th grade was Lulav haGazul. My
father was suprised, and got the answer I gave in my first paragraph,
with an emphasis on exposure to topics that recur.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You want to know how to paint a perfect
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   painting?  It's easy.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Make yourself perfect and then just paint
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    naturally.              -Robert Pirsig


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