Avodah Mailing List

Volume 43: Number 51

Sat, 23 Aug 2025

• 1. Re: Kiddushin and Nisuin (Harry Maryles)
• 2. Transitions (Joel Rich)
• 3. pump toilet (mco...@touchlogic.com)
• 4. Re: pump toilet (Joel Rich)
• 5. Re: Kiddushin and Nisuin (Danny Schoemann)
• 6. Kiddushin, Nisuin and Electric Pump Toilets (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)

Asked this of ChatGPT as well.? ?Got the following in seconds (again - can't vouch for its accuracy):

Background
   
   -    
In biblical and early rabbinic times, kiddushin (erusin) and nisuin were two separate stages, often months apart.
      
      -       
Kiddushin created a formal bond of betrothal, prohibiting the woman to others but not yet permitting marital life.

      -       
Nisuin (through chuppah or bringing the bride into the husband?s home) completed the marriage, permitting full marital relations.



When They Were Consolidated
   
   -    
Already in Talmudic times it was clear that the stages were distinct (see Kiddushin 2a?3a).

   -    
However, by the Geonic period (roughly 7th?11th centuries CE), the practice began to consolidate.

   -    
The Rambam (Hil. Ishut 10:1?2) describes erusin and nisuin as conceptually
separate, but notes that minhag had shifted to perform them together under
the chuppah.

   -    
The Tur (Even HaEzer 55) and Shulchan Aruch (EH 55:1) codify the minhag: ?In our times, we do not perform kiddushin unless nisuin follows immediately.?

   -    
The reason: leaving a gap between betrothal and marriage created risks of
immorality, uncertainty, and agunah-type complications. Therefore,
communities instituted that both stages be performed together.


References
   
   -    
Talmud Bavli, Kiddushin 2a?3a ? distinction between erusin and nisuin.

   -    
Rambam, Hilkhot Ishut 10:1?2 ? records both stages but notes current practice of combining.

   -    
Tur, Even HaEzer 55 ? states that in his time kiddushin and nisuin were no longer separated.

   -    
Shulchan Aruch, EH 55:1 ? codifies the consolidated practice.

   -    
Encyclopaedia Judaica, s.v. Marriage ? historical overview, noting the Geonic period as the turning point.

? In short: Kiddushin and nisuin were originally distinct and often
separated by time; by the Geonic era, Jewish communities increasingly
consolidated them, and by the time of the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch, it was
the universal custom that both happen together under the chuppah.
Want Emes and Emunah in your life? Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/ 

    On Sunday, August 17, 2025 at 11:15:51 PM CDT, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:  
 
   
I was asked twice this past week and didn't know the answer.
 
Does anyone have knowledge and, preferably a reference, as to when kiddushin and nisuin were consolidated?
 

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If the transition in general from the bet medrash to the working world
weren?t seen as natural, would that mean that the ?system? has room for
improvement?
bsorot tovot
Joel Rich
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Do you have a reference for the heter for electric flush toilets? ..
 
Heard from RS Miller multiple times.
 
and see pg 2 here
 
[ https://www.bikurcholim.ca//wp-content/uploads/2019/09/shabbos_reference_guide_5781_pages.pdf
]( https://www.bikurcholim.ca//wp-content/uploads/2019/09/shabbos_reference_guide_5781_pages.pdf
)

and its pashut (once you have the hanacha that we in NA are not choshaish for the CI on electricity)
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but is it lchatchila to build one?
bsorot tovot
joel rich

On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 4:43?AM mcohen--- via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> Do you have a reference for the heter for electric flush toilets? ..
>
>
>
> Heard from RS Miller multiple times.
>
>
>
> and see pg 2 here
>
>
>
>
> https://www.bikurcholim.ca//wp-content/uploads/2019/09/shabbos_reference_guide_5781_pages.pdf
>
> and its pashut (once you have the hanacha that we in NA are not choshaish
> for the CI on electricity)
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
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>
> R'  Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer asked

I was asked twice this past week and didn't know the answer.


> Does anyone have knowledge and, preferably a reference, as to when

kiddushin and nisuin were consolidated?


The Tur (1269-1343) mentions it in Even HaEzer, chapter 62 as the current
practice.
??????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????

However the Beis Yosef  (1488-1575) there comments that some do and some
don't.
?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????


The Remo (c. 1520-1572) in Even HaEzer, Chapter 55 also mentions it as the
current practice.
?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???????
???????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ???????

So it seems the Ashkenazim had this custom at least 200 years before the
Sefardim started adopting it.

Further research shows that the Gaonim started the trend. To quote the rest
of my conversation with Gemini verbatim:

While specific responsa that directly and explicitly command the
consolidation of the two ceremonies are not easily found in extant Geonic
literature, the underlying trend and reasoning are addressed in a broader
context. The moral and social concerns that led to the later consolidation
are found in discussions about the proper conduct of a betrothed couple.

For instance, the responsa of **Rav Hai Gaon** (939-1038) touch on the
moral implications of the long waiting period. While he does not codify a
change to the wedding ceremony itself, his writings reflect the communal
anxiety over the time between *kiddushin* and *nisuin*, as he writes about
the severe transgressions that might occur if the couple is not married
quickly and properly.

Another example is found in the responsa of **Rabbi Sherira Gaon** (c.
906-1006). His responsa, while also not directly consolidating the
ceremonies, show the *minhag* (custom) of his time in Bavel (Babylonia),
which reflected a more immediate wedding following the betrothal agreement
than what was common in Talmudic times. The shift in practice began
incrementally, often driven by the rabbinic leadership's response to
community issues.

This gradual shift is why the Tur and other later codifiers mention the
practice as a contemporary *minhag* that has developed over time, rather
than a single, explicit ruling from a specific Gaon. The consolidation was
a collective and widespread response to communal needs rather than a
specific *takanah* (decree) from a single Geonic authority.

(You can see my entire conversation return Gemini here:
https://g.co/gemini/share/952ccbaef0fa )

Kol Tuv

Danny

P. S. I have added some rules to my Gemini: 1. Don't quote non-jewish
sources (including x-ian and missionary). 2. Include (birth - death) dates
whenever mentioning a person. 3. Don't change facts when editing my
writing. (Not relevant to this discussion)
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Thank you for all the responses!

As to Kiddushin and Nisuin, thanks for the information from AI. You 
obviously are good at crafting questions!

However, the bottom line is that we don't know when, precisely, the 
custom disappeared and whether it was a takkanah or just an historical 
development sometime during the time of the Gaonim. Sounds like more of 
the latter.

Regarding the pump toilets, it seems like the heter is based on ignoring 
the CI. That there is no way to reconcile the CI with the issue. The 
question is whether a shinui making it d'rabbanan would then allow kavod 
ha'beriyos to kick in.

Thanks!!!

KT,

YGB


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