Avodah Mailing List

Volume 43: Number 49

Thu, 14 Aug 2025

• 1. Kavod Rav (Joseph Kaplan)
• 2. Is there such a thing as psak in hashkafa? Fascinating (Joel Rich)
• 3. pump toilet (Joel Rich)
• 4. Re: pump toilet (Micha Berger)

? R Reuven Feinstein mentioned that the Maharam Mrutenberg did not visit his
father because of the halachic question who would stand for whom. He did
not answer his own question concerning how this fits into kibud av as a
hashkafa.
Thoughts??

I wonder how true this story is. (We know that there are many urban legends
about gedolim that are probably told as moral lessons but never actually
occurred.) I note this because if that was really a barrier, there are easy
enough practical solutions if one wants to see one?s father strongly enough
(as one should). They could enter the room at the same time and sit down at
the same time. They could stand up together and leave at the same time. Or
they could ask each other mechilah for not standing up and grant such
mechilah. And I?m sure there are more. 

More than that, isn?t a rabbi?s job to answer difficult questions. Surely
the Maharam had more difficult halachic questions than this one. Indeed,
our local shul rabbis have more difficult questions regularly about end of
life issues which they answer just as regularly. And if the Maharam thought
he had a conflict of interest in answering it himself, he could have asked
another Rav and do what we all do ? ask a shailah and follow the teshuvah. 

So my bottom line ?thoughts? about this (which the OP asked for) would not
only be surprise that the Maharam passed on observing one of the 10
commandments, but also that he passed on it because of a question of who
should stand for whom ? certainly not a Torah level issue. 

Which leads to my ultimate thought. Some stories have a lofty moral even if
I think they are apocryphal. This one, however, has practical and halachic
issues that makes me wonder whether this is what Halacha is, or should be,
about. So I choose to believe that it never happened. 

Joseph


Sent from my iPhone

Is there such a thing as psak in hashkafa?  Fascinating



https://www.yutorah.org/ reading/lecture.cfm/1144365
<https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/1144365>

Rabbi Dovid Miller-Halacha and Morality: The View of the Rav (and R Dessler)


Bsorot tovot

Joel Rich
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May (one should) lchatchila build a below grade pump toilet knowing that it
will be used on Shabbat?
bsorot tovot
Joel Rich
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On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 05:50:47PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> May (one should) lchatchila build a below grade pump toilet knowing that it
> will be used on Shabbat?

According to the Taz (OC 340:2), pesiq reisha is derabbanan. In which
case, it may even be mutar to flush the toilet, by parallel to carrying
a rock for use in post-bathroom hygiene (when there is nothing prepared),
or tearing an off-size section of toilet paper for the same purpose.

I don't think this is the majority shitah... Like among rishonim,
it's more common to say only pesiaq reisha delo nicha lei that's
derabbanan. See Rambam Hil' Shabbos 1:6, SA se'if 18 (and the BY's
discussion), Ran (end of Shabbaos ch. 14), Ritva (Sukkah 33b). And I'm
sure others.

(And then in the Taz's sources, PR delo nicha lei is actually mutar.)

So if pesiq reisha is deOraisa, is putting in the toilet lifnei iveir,
or at least mesayeia' - since that toilet is bound to be built either way,
maybe the issur is not "mei'eiver hanahar" without you?

This case is unlike a retaurant serving someone who won't bentch,
also enabling the biolation of a deOraisa, because in the case of the
restaurant you have to be afraid that someone who wouldn't bentch might
also not buy kosher if you are not convenient.

Good question. Just wanted to point out the Taz's shitah even if I do
not think it's din. Maybe a poseiq would use it as a snif lehaqeil if
there are other snifim.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 People were created to be loved.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Things were created to be used.
Author: Widen Your Tent      The reason why the world is in chaos is that
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    things are being loved, people are being used.


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