Volume 43: Number 42
Wed, 09 Jul 2025
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2025 09:59:17 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] ?Lashon Hara in the Torah
R Micha suggested; We learn {WE, is that a reference to the Gemara or an
Acharon?}
Hil' Geneivas Daas from comparing that event to the end of Bereishis when
the brothers entirely lie about Yaaqov asking Yosef to forgive them rather
than Hashem's only telling Avraham a partial truth.
{Not sure I understand the comparison - they lied in order to bring about
peace, LeMaAn HaShalom, that is how Chazal describe it; Sara Immenu?s
deflection/indiscretion was due to her being afraid, Ki YeReiAh. R Micha
introduces HKBHs lie to Avraham for the sake of peace, why might that be
relevant?}
{Also not sure what R Micha wants to clarify with his observations about
Dovid HaMelech and ReUvein}
{It seems the Ohr HaChaim - VaTeChaChesh Sarah 18:15 understands that Sarah
Imenus fear was like the loyal servant who realises that he has defied
unintentionally the instructions of his master, over a trifling matter,
lets say he was instructed to make the martini shaken not stirred - and in
fact no one can tell the difference between the two - but the servant is
afraid not of retribution but of his betrayal, that he did not consider
with sufficient weight, the wishes of his master}
{it seems likely that every indiscretion recorded in the Torah must serve a
constructive purpose, what is that in the case of Sara Immenu laughing and
her being reprimanded}
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2025 12:20:43 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Lashon Hara in the Torah
On Fri, Jul 04, 2025 at 09:59:17AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
>> Hil' Geneivas Daas from comparing that event to the end of Bereishis when
>> the brothers entirely lie about Yaaqov asking Yosef to forgive them rather
>> than Hashem's only telling Avraham a partial truth.
>
> Not sure I understand the comparison - they lied in order to bring about
> peace, LeMaAn HaShalom, that is how Chazal describe it; Sara Immenu's
> deflection/indiscretion was due to her being afraid, Ki YeReiAh. R Micha
> introduces HKBHs lie to Avraham for the sake of peace, why might that be
> relevant?
We cannot learn the laws of when sheqer or shinui es ha'emes are
appropriate from Hashem only telling Avraham a partial truth of what
Sarah said without knowing what Sarah actually said by comparison.
> Also not sure what R Micha wants to clarify with his observations about
> Dovid HaMelech and ReUvein
These are cases where the pasuq is more judgmental than Chazal says
is reality. It not only says what we would have thought was LH against
Re'uevein and David, it imploys quzma. So that one also has to understand
how Chazal aren't saying the pasuq committed motzi sheim ra!
And whatever reasons the pasuq has for hiding information about a sin
or in the reverse -- exaggerating it -- one has to explain why those
reasons don't apply to Chazal.
Your question, but more so, as we have the same problem in both
directions.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Take time,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp be exact,
Author: Widen Your Tent unclutter the mind.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
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Message: 3
From: Joel Rich
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 10:52:35 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] retirement?
I was told that rav gershon ribner was asked if someone who makes millions
should retire and learn or continue to work. he said every yeshiva bochur
would say stop and learn but lmayse the gedolim dont advise as such. he
doesn?t know why but that?s lmayseh what they say that ? it?s not your
tafkid?
Thoughts? bsorot tovot
Joel Rich
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Message: 4
From: Allan Engel, Akiva Miller and Jay F. Shachter
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 22:30:57 -0500 (EDT)
Subject: [Avodah] (1) Re: The Census Numbers In Bmidbar, and (2)
Modeator's note:
This discussion is somewhat on topic, being about HP and free will. But
as you will see, it isn't the list's usual fare. With the current
less-than-overwhelming volume, I chose to include it. But as a compromise,
I am collapsing the following email exchange into a single post. I was
able to trim the quoting signature files, etc... that way.
-micha
--
From: <allan.en...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 17:32:18 +0100
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Census Numbers In Bmidbar
On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 at 16:25, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Way back when Hashem put confusing numbers in His Torah, He knew exactly
> when and where R' Jay F. Shachter would post:
By saying that "He knew exactly when and where R' Jay F. Shachter would
post", you are diminishing (or removing completely) the schar due to R' JFS
for the time and effort that he puts into his learning and his search to
understand Toras Hasheim. There was nothing pre-determined about it.
--
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 13:06:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Census Numbers In Bmidbar
You are absolutely correct, and I apologize.
When I wrote what I did, my intention was to make a playful parody of
something that I have seen R' Jay F. Shachter write several times, namely:
> Centuries ago, Nostradamus predicted that Akiva
> Miller would write on Mon Jun 16 08:56:34 2025:
However, now that RAE has brought my attention to the matter, it seems that
RJFS never posted those words to the Avodah readership as a whole. I saw
them only when RJFS sent me a personal response to something that I had
posted. If I had realized this before, I would never have made a public
parody.
RJFS is a wonderful example of someone who obviously spends a lot of time
researching his posts, and figuring out how to write them in a clear and
entertaining way. I always enjoy reading his posts - even when I disagree -
and I have learned a great deal from him over the years.
--
From: "Jay F. Shachter" <j...@m5.chicago.il.us>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 22:30:57 -0500 (EDT)
Centuries ago, Nostradamus predicted that Akiva Miller would write on
Mon Jul 7 12:06:42 2025:
> RJFS is a wonderful example of someone who obviously spends a lot of
> time researching his posts, and figuring out how to write them in a
> clear and entertaining way. I always enjoy reading his posts - even
> when I disagree - and I have learned a great deal from him over the
> years.
Pursuant to the by-laws of our mutual admiration society, I must now
proclaim my high opinion of R' Akiva Miller. However, our Sages have
instructed us that one must speak all of a man's praise in his
absence, but only half of a man's praise in his presence. I therefore
proclaim, for all to hear, that R' Akiva Miller is a half-scholar and
a half-gentleman, but, what is more important, he is half of an
erlikher yid, and half of a mensch. His most impressive quality,
however, is his judgement of character. Truly, I have never known
anyone else who is twice as gifted as R' Akiva Miller in judging the
character of others. And everything that I have written here tonight
is half true.
Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
...
When Martin Buber was a schoolboy, it must have been
no fun at all playing tag with him during recess.
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 11:57:32 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] (1) Re: The Census Numbers In Bmidbar, and (2)
A side effect of spending time trying to make a moderation decision is that
I had time to think about the content of that exchange as well.
> From: <allan.en...@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 17:32:18 +0100
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 at 16:25, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> > Way back when Hashem put confusing numbers in His Torah, He knew exactly
> > when and where R' Jay F. Shachter would post:
> By saying that "He knew exactly when and where R' Jay F. Shachter would
> post", you are diminishing (or removing completely) the schar due to R' JFS
> for the time and effort that he puts into his learning and his search to
> understand Toras Hasheim. There was nothing pre-determined about it.
Actually, the problem is more theological... Hashem is lemaalah min
hazeman. As I like to say, and therefore must have written on Avodah
numerous times, "Hashem doesn't Know now what I will do tomorrow. Not
because He doesn't Know, but because He doesn't now."
And therefore Hashem simply tenseless Knows "exactly when and where R'
Jay F. Shachter would post". And that Knowing has no relationship to
"Way back when Hashem put confusing numbers in His Torah". In fact,
if the Torah shared in His Timelessness, there is no "way back when"
to that either, only to when confusing numbers were revealed to humans
(Noshe first) and thus entered the timeline.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"
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