Avodah Mailing List

Volume 43: Number 31

Mon, 26 May 2025

• 1. gaal yisrael (Joel Rich)
• 2. Re: gaal yisrael (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Rabi Yehuda Hanasi - Yom Hakippur wipes away all sins even without teshuva (Micha Berger)

The piskei tshuvot (O?C 66) is pretty clear that the practice of the chazan
saying gaal yisrael quietly is baseless and should not be followed. Any
empirical data from your experience on the frequence of this practice, its
source and/or reasons for its popularity?
bsorot tovot
joel rich
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On Wed, May 21, 2025 at 06:04:07AM +0300, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> The piskei tshuvot (O"C 66) is pretty clear that the practice of the chazan
> saying gaal yisrael quietly is baseless and should not be followed. Any
> empirical data from your experience on the frequence of this practice, its
> source and/or reasons for its popularity?

The AhS (OC 66:14) comes out against saying "amein". Here is my take
on his discussion:

The Tur holds one says "amein" even to one's own Birkhas Ge'ulah when
davening alone. Like Sepharadim do whenever there is the end of a chain
of berakhos hasemuchos lechavertoseihen. And, the AhS adds, Ashkenazim
only do after the deOraisa berakhos of Bentshin.

RYME had just discussed the Roqeiach's pesaq that we answer Qedushah between
Ge'ulah and Tefillah, but dismisses it as a daas yachid. Now he says and
qal vachomer notsaying "amein"

And the SA se'if 7 and the Zohar would have you not saying "amein".

But the Rama says that some do say "amein". Which leaves RYME suggesting
that they say that "amein" is both more pressing and less of a hefseiq
than Qedushah because it's the same berakhah.

He concludes that "our minhag" is not to say "amein". The parentheses
cites Elyah Rabba s"q 10 who cites the Re'eim, and the AhS cites the
Shelah. Last, the Mechber's Maggid told him not to say "amein". End of
the end-note.



Jumping back a bit to another but similar case:

The AhS (OC 59:14) says one should answer "amein" for "Oheiv Amo Yisrael".
He notes the BY says not to, but that's because the Mechaber holds these
are berakhos on the Mitzvah of Q"Sh. But we hold like the Rashba. And
he says the Rama is saying as much when he refers you to what he wrote
in s' 61. And "vekhein haminhag".



Not in the yeshivos, though. Which I think is the answer to RJR's too --
the commonality of this practice is probably around communities where the
RY became the gedolei haposqim and therefore Lomdus started playing more
of a role in pesaq. (And which pesaq was accepted more both in acharonim
and practice - less.)

(Tangent to my tangent: I wonder if R Ovadiah's pesaq and siddur that
has women not saying Sheim uMalkhus in Birkhos Qeri'as Shema depends on
this BY. It would seem that according to the Rashba, even women don't
make berakhos on MAshZG (ie Sepharadios) would still say the regular
berakhah here.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 38th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF         promote harmony in life and relationships?

On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 07:44:20AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> What is the rationale behind this? A person does all kinds of serious
> aveiros doesn't feel bad about it and doesn't repent and yet comes Yom
> Kippur all is forgiven. Why? How does that make any sense?

Simple proof Rebbe didn't mean this at face value: After noon, or
after the se'ir hamishtaleiach (which is the mishnah -- also Rebbe,
or perhaps R Meir), they still said vidui, they still held ne'ilah.

And as Tosafos Yeshanim note, sometimes the wool didn't turn white.
Which means there are conditions for which the day itself isn't
machaper. Teshuvah is still requires.

The Rambam (Hil' Teshuvah 1:3) writes similarly, "atzmo shel Yom
haKippurim mechapeir leshavim". Not instead of teshuvah. In H' 4 he
elaborates by quoting Yuma 86a:

Tehuvah is sufficient for Hashem to be Mocheil an asei immediately.

A regular lav is suspended (tolah) after teshuvah, but mechilah isn't
until YK.

An issur kareis or misas BD -- teshuvah and YK are tolin, but full
kaparah requires yisurin.

Chilul hasheim requires misah for full kaparah.

-- ad kan the gemara and the Rambam --

87a also excludes the person who sins by planning on itzumo shel
yom fixing everying.

Now the question is defining mechilah, selichah, kapparah.. What
does it mean to be toleh -- one or more but not all of these are
obtained?

Last, I recommend the Matmonim podcast by R David Lapin, a shiur on
hashkafah based on the daf (more often rishonim related to the daf) given
in Raanana. The podcast for Shavuos 13 <https://youtu.be/AJf2RjaIFts>
deals with your question.





Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 38th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF         promote harmony in life and relationships?


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