Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 61

Sat, 19 Aug 2023

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Joe Slater
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 08:47:19 +1000
Re: [Avodah] Another Second Temple Era Menorah found

> See there for the pictures of the remains of the menorah sculptures. The
> arms
> are curved. And this is contemporary with Bayis Sheini.
> The evidence is pretty consistent.

Yes, it is, although the proportions of this depiction are quite different
to the depiction on the Arch of Titus (Y"Sh).

I don't think we can be sure that the menorah is contemporary with the Beis
Hamikdosh, but if so it's possible that one or both artists were careless
and/or unfamiliar with the actual menorah, or that the menorah was replaced
between the two depictions. It would be very interesting to compare all
known depictions for length/width of arms, central stem, number of
decorations, etc., and see how much they have in common.

Joe Slater
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Message: 2
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2023 05:26:13 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Davening priorities

R' Joel Rich asked:
> Which would you choose ? davening Shacharit on a parked plane
> after misheyakir but before hanetz or on a flying plane after
> hanetz? Why?

The "parked plane" scenario is unclear to me.

If it is parked because people are still boarding, but you are already in
your seat, do you really expect that status quo to remain all the while
until you're done davening? It seems to me quite likely that at some
unknown point, the plane will begin taxiing, the crew will give their
safety shpiel, the plane will take off, etc. I really don't see any
advantage to davening under such conditions.

If it is parked because the plane has landed but passengers have not yet
disembarked, that's even worse. It can often *seem* like a long time until
the aisle is clear and you too can leave, but it's likely faster than you
think. I suppose it is a good time to daven mincha, and maybe even maariv,
but if you try it for shacharis, you'll probably find a very annoyed flight
crew waiting for you to finish.

All this to daven at a b'dieved time, just so that you won't be jostled by
the bumpy ride? I think you have additional pros and cons that I haven't
thought of.

Akiva Miller
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Message: 3
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2023 06:19:35 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Minyan Man?

R' Joel Rich posted:
> Davened in the bet Knesset in Ben Gurion airport (NATBAG). There
> were about 15 men at various points in their private tfilot. One
> individual walked up to the amud and proceeded to daven out loud
> the entire tfila (kaddish, barchu etc) as if he were a shaliach
> tzibur. People (including new arrivals) answered even though
> they were at different points (if at all) of davening. There
> were possibly two people davening at his pace. Analysis?

My best dan l'kaf zechus is:

This is exactly how this man acts at home, at his local minyan factory, and
he acted the same here by force of habit, not realizing the changed
circumstances. At home, the crowd is probably accustomed to his start time
and his speed, and they know how to pace themselves to reach Shmoneh Esreh
together. He simply didn't realize that the smaller crowd, and their
unfamiliarity with him, would render all that unlikely. I will leave it to
others to analyze whether or not you should have responded to his Barchu,
Chazaras Hashatz, etc.

But regarding Kaddish, I will take this opportunity to compare the above to
another very common situation: Maariv ends, and they all shuffle outside to
say Kiddush Levana. Each person begins when they get outside, even though
there is traffic and some people have already started while others are
still in the shul trying to get out. There is no chazan outside, who says
certain parts out loud so that the others can try to keep pace and be a
unified tzibur. Instead, at some unpredictable point, someone takes it upon
himself to say the last line of Alenu out loud, and expects the aveilim to
say Kaddish.

Is this Kaddish okay or not? Does halacha have a minimum definition of a
tzibur for saying kaddish? (I question whether these people constitute a
tzibur, or whether it's just a bunch of yechidim who happen to be saying
this tefilah more or less at a similar time.) Can a person unilaterally
decide to say a perek of Tehillim on an (all-men) bus and then say Kaddish
out of the blue? Maybe he can. If the Kaddish after Kiddush Levana is okay
as I've described it, then maybe the Kaddish on the bus and in the airport
were also okay.

Akiva Miller

Note: This lack of coordination at Kiddush Levana is a pet peeve of mine; I
feel that Kiddush Levana should be done more like Pesukei Dzimra, with a
chazan saying a line from each paragraph aloud. Yes, I know that in many
shuls, the chazan says none of Pesukei Dzimra aloud until Yishtabach. I
find that incredibly inconsiderate, especially towards guests (unless there
is a sign posted about what time they expect to reach Yishtabach, which is
very rare). One Shabbos, I was visiting a certain yeshiva, where the start
time for Shacharis was publicly posted, but I soon realized that the Chazan
was going to be silent for all of Pesukei D'zimra. So I asked several
locals what time they'll be reaching Shochen Ad, so that I could pace
myself, and/or skip selected paragraphs if necessary. Several people had no
idea what time to aim for, and the one person who did answer me was in
error by five full minutes. If anyone can offer advice for how to daven in
such places, I would really appreciate it.
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