Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 32

Mon, 24 Apr 2023

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Brent Kaufman
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 23:06:51 -0500
[Avodah] The Wise Son vs the Wicked Son and the word ''you''

>>It doesn't read like that. He is
>>belittling the idea of performing the avodah by asking "What is this to

I think you are reading the 'belittling' part into the question where it
isn't there. We've all been conditioned by the inference of the drasha and
the years of being taught "it's in his tone", as if that were at all
relevant in a text.

A number of years ago I offered this answer to the question: How do we know
he's a rasha? The reason we know he's a rasha is only because the narrator
tells us that he is. No one walks around with a sign saying where we stand
in HKBH's eyes; and we don't get to darshen the words of others, let alone
children's. People often word things imprecisely, even when trying to say
something good. Only an author can tell you the nature of their character

Chaimbaruch Kaufman


*?Bill, strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.?-Theodore/Ted Logan, Esq.*
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Message: 2
From: Brent Kaufman
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 22:44:08 -0500
[Avodah] What really happened just before leaving Egypt?

>>Maybe BY just weren't ready to get their hopes up. The process has been
>>going on for a year, did they know it would wrap up in hours rather
>>than days, months, or even a year or two? Would they have been ready to
>>believe it?

Ok, but I was really asking about the women. We're told that YM was in the
zechus of the Emunah of the Nashim. My question, questions that emunah,
since they started baking before leaving. Your question re-enforces that by
doubting everyone's emunah.

Another part of my question, that I forgot to even write down, is, how many
women did this synchronized baking? It would have had to have been enough
people doing this that the Torah says that the reason that we eat matzah on
Pesach is because "our forefathers" (words of the Hagadah compare with
Shemos 12:34,39) didn't have time to let their dough rise.

The pasuk goes on (to re-enforce R. Micha's and my questions) to say that
they didn't even prepare snacks for the road (tzeida l'derech).

I am very much against people coming up with "It was a neis." as answers
for questions which seem unsolvable, where the Torah or Chazal don't
mention any such neis. However, I saw recently that R. Moshe Dovid Valle
z"l did exactly this when asking how BY were so quick to want a golden
calf, and how Hashem could let a tzadik like Aharon sin so easily by giving
in right away to their request/demand. He said it was by HKBH's hashgacha
that it all happened, it was necessary because... ayin shom.

Is this the case regarding matzah? HKBH wanted us to have drashos galore
about "chipazone" and the yetzer hara being like chometz and having to
search for it....? Is that a valid answer in this case?

Chaimbaruch Kaufman


*?Bill, strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.?-Theodore/Ted Logan, Esq.*
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Message: 3
From: Meir Shinnar
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 19:34:26 -0400
[Avodah] Ashkenazic Pronounciation

On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 09:10:52PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan wrote to Areivim:
>> More seriously, I was surprised at the accent of the
>> ba'al tefillah repeating the amidah prior to birchat kohanim. I would
>> have thought that at this type of gathering at the Kotel, the ba'al
>> tefillah would have sounded like someone who lives in Israel in 2023
>> and not Europe of the previous century.

> Micha Berger

> Halachically, this is more correct, assuming most of the kohanim were
> descendents of Jews who lived in Europe of the previous century.

> Havarah Yisraelit (as opposed to real Sepharadi accents) is not a minhag.
> How can you simply use it for tefillah, and to be yotzei a deOraisa,
> no less!

> When R Kook got the question about how to say Qeri'as Shema or read
> the Torah, he insisted that if they can do so consistently they should
> use their traditional East European havarah. As RAYK himself did. He
> did grant that someone who is so used to Havarah Yisraelit that they
> cannot be consistent if they tried to speak Ashknuzis are better off
> using consistent Yisraelit. BUT, they should practice to try to be able
> in the future.

> An extreme example:
> To Ashknazi mesorah, the way Israelis pronounce Sheim Adnus would
> translate to "My Lords". The sheim itself has a qamatz under the nun,
> and thus should not be pronounced the same as the plural.

> (I do wonder about that first "echad", where lengthening the dalet isn't
> possible in Ashknazis. Nor in Israeli, but I wonder if RAYK would prefer
> Ashkenazis over the Rambam's "sound like a bee" with a long /dh/ as in
> "this". Or, being careful to say "ul'avdo bekhol-levavkhem" with an ayin,
> not an alef -- to serve Him, not to eradicate. But now we are deep in
> Avodah territory.)

WADR, this is highly problematic.

RAYK was complaining about the change in minhag -- not that one was not
yotze. However, he was talking at a time when Havana yisraelit (abazit)
was just beginning, and most Ashkenazim, even who used Havana yisraelit,
grew up with Ashkenazis or at least with people who spoke Ashkenazis. When
today, most Israelis and Americans, grew up with Havana yisraelit, the
issues are very different -- and frequently represents more politics
(antizioni) flavored as Halacha.

I know of no one who argues, for example, that Sefardim are not yotze when
they say Shem adnus with a patach. Wrt changing pronounciation -- we know
rav Natan Adler (rv of hatam Sofer) changed to Havana sefaradi.

Furthermore, the historical assumption about Ashkenazic pronunciation, and
especially of the patch/kamatz distinction -- Micha's extreme example -- is
problematic. Indeed, while recent minhag Ashkenazi did distinguish between
patach and kamatz, ancient minhag Ashkenazi did not
Beside the piyutim of Ashkenaz, that routinely rhymed patach with kamatz, we
have clear evidence that gdole Ashkenaz did not distinguish

Eg, Rashi. About the echad in shma -- says (brachot 13b) uvildvad shelo
yacht ofbehet -- eg -- read it with a hataf patach. See also rashi breshit
14:14, that heh at the end is instead of a lamed at the beginning -- but not
instead of a lamed with a patach -- and the lamed infant is with with a
kamazt (lahar with two kamatzim)

See also ketubot 69:2 -- calling a patach when he means a kamatz

Rav Asher Milunil sefer haminhagot, in dsicudssing birchat hamotzi. And why
one says hamotzi rather than motzai -- says not to confuse with the mem of
haolam. And in discussing the difference between that and lechem min, calls
the kamatz in olam a patach, and sego under lechem a there.

Maharam mirotenburg did not distinguish -- eg, his known tshuva that in assert
meme tshuva we do not say zochrenu lachaim (with a patach) so it doesn't
sound la (with a kamaz) la haim. If he distinguished between kamatz and
patach -- not n issue.

Rash and Tur also did not distinguish.as well as rev Yehuda hahasid.

We have from 18th century Prague that they read a kamtz almost like a
patach, until hadashim mekarov ba'u and said a kamatz with a narrow mouth...
(One interesting source for much of this is sefat Emet by benzoin hacohen, a
Tunisian haredi, who goes through history of different Hebrew
Therefore, while it is true that in recent times ashkenazim read a kamatz
one way, it is also true that it is an authentic minhag Ashkenaz to read a
hataf like a kamatz. Those who are trying to reestablish authentic minhag
Ashkenaz may want to consider it....

There is a tshuva by rev tzvi pesach frank who was asked if a litvak was
yotze kriat megilla by a Galizianer, and he answered shelo gara milashon
shebadu chachamim. Cute answer. However, I would suggest that, especially
when communities are close together, we should accept different
pronounciations -- even if we do not choose to use them. We need to widen
our tent....

Meir Shinnar

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Message: 4
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2023 13:42:07 +0000
[Avodah] Kosher Without a Kitchen

Kosher Without A Kitchen<https://www.kashrut.com/articles/KosherWithoutAKitchen.pdf>
        Keeping kosher in your family?s non-kosher kitchen
by Rabbi Nissan Zibell

Professor Yitzchok Levine

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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2023 11:40:42 -0400
[Avodah] The Arukh haShulchan, and R SZ Auerbach on

RSZA (Minchas Shelomo 1:9-12, centrally #11) holds that use of electricity
on Shabbos (to do things that would otherwise be mutar) is only assur
because of the universal acceptance of such a prohibition by the global
observant community and our rabbis.

This idea that a universal acceptance can create a deRabbanan even without
Sanhedrin shows up in AhS YD 90:14. (In AhS Yomi for last Monday.
<http://aishdas.org/ahs-yomi>.) The siman discusses the kashrus of udders,
and how to get the milk out. Milk that was in the cow at the time of shechitah
is milchigs, but only derabbanan.

The case is a pashtida (some kind of filled bake good) that contains
an udder that was kashered to roasting standards. Should it be treated
like something made in a pan or a pot, even though the pashtida was made
directly over the fire? (And the meat is within the pashtida.)

The Taz (s"q 8) says in the name of the Rashal that the common acceptance
not to eat such a pashtida (tart?) has all the power of a derabbanan
and shouldn't be eaten even bedi'eved / hefsed merubbah.

The AhS rejects this line of reasoning, saying that okay, the geonim
strengthened the general topic of udders and their milk, so it's enough
to be machmir lekhatchilah. But saying that bedi'eved too, because the
pashtida extension is effectively an issur derabbanan -- that's going
too far.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 Today is the 18th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   2 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Netzach sheb'Tifferes: What is imposing about
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                           balance?


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