Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 67

Thu, 06 Oct 2022

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2022 18:07:20 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Piyyutim of HaKalir Regarding the Creation of the


Piyyutim of HaKalir Regarding the Creation of the Earth (and eilu v'eilu)



Rebbi Eliezer (RH 10b) states the world was created in Tishrei, whereas
Rebbi Yehoshua states the world was created in Nissan. (Rosh HaShannah
10b.)

Following the principle that sans Hashem creating the universe, there was
no time or seasons, for they themselves were part and parcel of Creation,
we may suggest one of the following interpretations:

1. The machlokes is over whether, when Hashem placed the astronomical
bodies, such as the sun and stars, in their places on the 4th day, He
placed them in relation to the earth in the way they are in the Fall or the
Spring. So that Adam found himself in the Fall or the Spring.

2 These Tannaim are not speaking at all about physical seasons and
climates, but about the middah in which Hashem decided to have the world
run, Tishrei signifying din and strict justice, Nissan signifying rachamim.
(One would have to say that this is true of the other events listed, as
well, or that this part of the statements was meant in a different sense.)
This understanding would then parallel the Chazal that originally Hashem
desired to create the world in din, but actually created the world in
rachamim. To avoid the absurdity of Hashem changing His mind, this in turn
could be interpreted to mean that Hashem had two legitimate choices before
Him and He chose the latter.

Regardless...

Tosafos (RH 27a) poses a contradiction in the piyyutim of R. Elazar
HaKalir. He says that in the Geshem piyyut recited on Shemini Atzeres, R.
Kalir states that the world was created in Tishrei aligning with Rebbi
Eliezer), whereas in his piyyut for Pesach he states that the world was
created in Nissan (aligning with Rebbi Yehoshua).

Tosafos answers that Rabbeinu Tam said ''Eilu VeEilu Divrei Elokim Chaim.''
He then adds: ''And one may say that in Tishrei the thought rose to create,
but it wasn't created until Nissan.'' I think it is more likely that the
second statement is an explanation of the first, rather than an alternate
one.

But it occurred to me that we know that Tosafos (Chagigah 13a) considers R.
Eliezer HaKalir to be the Tanna Eliezer, son of Shimon bar Yochai. What is
Tosafos' meaning, then, by the words ''eilu v'eilu divrei Elokim Chaim? If
R. Eliezer HaKalir is himself a Tanna, Tosafos would consider him quite
entitled to disagree with both Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi Yehoshua, and
qualified to offer a third, independent opinion on this matter.


It seems that he is saying that R. Eliezer Hakalir held that although Rebbi
Yehoshua was correct as to ''when'' (either literally, or in the sense of
in what seasonal position vis a vis the heavenly bodies, or according to
which middah the world would run) Hashem actually created the earth, Rebbi
Eliezer had a point--hence, his words were divrei Elokim--in that Hashem
had strongly entertained the possibility of--creating the universe /
positioning the earth vis a vis the heavenly bodies / conducting the world
according to the middah of--Tishrei. And the latter is what HaKalir means
in his Shemini Atzeres Geshem piyyut when he says the world was ''created''
in Tishrei.

One problem that remains, however, is that I have not been able to find any
piyyut in our machzorim, Geshem on Shemini Atzeres or otherwise, that says
anything about the world being created in Tishrei!



Zvi Lampel
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2022 12:22:04 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Piyyutim of HaKalir Regarding the Creation of


On Sun, Oct 02, 2022 at 06:07:20PM -0400, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
> Rebbi Eliezer (RH 10b) states the world was created in Tishrei, whereas
> Rebbi Yehoshua states the world was created in Nissan. (Rosh HaShannah
> 10b.)

> 1. The machlokes is over whether, when Hashem placed the astronomical
> bodies, such as the sun and stars, in their places on the 4th day, He
> placed them in relation to the earth in the way they are in the Fall or
> the Spring. So that Adam found himself in the Fall or the Spring.

The same baalei pelugta, on 110a:

R Yehoshua says that Hashem created trees about to bring
forth fruit. Which is what one would expect of trees created in spring.

R Eliezer that everything was created fully formed, so the fruit was
ready to be picked, closer to Sukkos /Chag haAsif.

(And that could well tie this machloqes to the statement in Bereishis
Rabba 14:7 <https://www.sefaria.org/Bereishit_Rabbah.14.7> about how
Adam and Chavah were created with the forms of 20 year olds. And thus
implying that Adam indeed had a navel <grin>. There R Yehudah ben Simon
says that Adam ("Ofer Olam") was created "melei'aso", R Elazar bar Shimon
adds that Chavah too was created "melei'asah". And R Yochanan said both
were created with the forms of 20 year olds.)

In other words, I think version 1 of this machloqes should be framed as
being about whether Hashem created things in infancy, and thus in Nissan
when the tree starts its cycle of growth, or fully developed, and thus
in the fall.

> 2 These Tannaim are not speaking at all about physical seasons and
> climates, but about the middah in which Hashem decided to have the
> world run, Tishrei signifying din and strict justice, Nissan signifying
> rachamim...

With my suggested framing, it is easier to see the two approaches as
related. Not that I have details about what that relationship would
be. Infants rely on Rachamim (rechem / Av haRachaman)... Adults have
a past for Din to respond to - but that's only real adults, not
structurally adult newborns. As I said, I am just smelling hints of
where they would be related.

> Tosafos (RH 27a) poses a contradiction in the piyyutim of R. Elazar
> HaKalir. He says that in the Geshem piyyut recited on Shemini Atzeres, R.
> Kalir states that the world was created in Tishrei aligning with Rebbi
> Eliezer), whereas in his piyyut for Pesach he states that the world was
> created in Nissan (aligning with Rebbi Yehoshua).

> Tosafos answers that Rabbeinu Tam said "Eilu VeEilu Divrei Elokim Chaim."
> He then adds: "And one may say that in Tishrei the thought rose to
> create, but it wasn't created until Nissan." I think it is more likely
> that the second statement is an explanation of the first, rather than
> an alternate one.

"Hayom *haras* olam" -- RH as the day the world was "conceived", 6 months
before it was actually "born".

> But it occurred to me that we know that Tosafos (Chagigah 13a)
> considers R. Eliezer HaKalir to be the Tanna Eliezer, son of Shimon
> bar Yochai. What is Tosafos' meaning, then, by the words "eilu v'eilu
> divrei Elokim Chaim? ...

That bas qol was about Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai. And yet, BH stil
taught shittas Beis Shammai first. (And not just as a foil, a hava
amina to upshlug as a buttress to their own position.) Seems to me one
is supposed to hold eilu va'eilu even when you are one of the eilu! A
tanna has the anavah necessary to accept that there is truth to the
other tzad too.

You and I have discussed here in the past what eilu va'eilu even means
when the machloqes is about a historical statement in Tanakh. But that's
not what you're asking here. It is just making it harder for me to
imagine what it being asked of R Eliezer.



Seems to me we "hold like" R Yehoshua -- the world was created in Nissan.
That's what your closing sentence implies to me:
> One problem that remains, however, is that I have not been able to find
> any piyyut in our machzorim, Geshem on Shemini Atzeres or otherwise,
> that says anything about the world being created in Tishrei!

Even as "the veldt knows" Maaseh Bereishis was the last week in Elul,
and RH is Adam's birthday. (And so much for the aggadita in AZ about
Adam's holiday in December, which depends on the cheit of eating from
the Eitz haDaas having happened when days were shrinking. My standard
devar Torah for the Shabbos nearest Dec 25th...)

And Tosafos's image of R Elezer haKalir must have accepted that he was
playing Beis Shammai's role in this machloqes. Or maybe simpler, those
piyutim were written, but simply didn't survive in our machzorim.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 People were created to be loved.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Things were created to be used.
Author: Widen Your Tent      The reason why the world is in chaos is that
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    things are being loved, people are being used.



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Message: 3
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2022 19:42:07 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Piyyutim of HaKalir Regarding the Creation of


On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 12:22 PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> [RH] 110a:
>
> R Yehoshua says that Hashem created trees about to bring
> forth fruit. Which is what one would expect of trees created in spring.
>
> R Eliezer that everything was created fully formed, so the fruit was
> ready to be picked, closer to Sukkos /Chag haAsif.
>
> ...
> In other words, I think version 1 of this machloqes should be framed as
> being about whether Hashem created things in infancy, and thus in Nissan
> when the tree starts its cycle of growth, or fully developed, and thus
> in the fall.
>

Nice!

>
> > 2 These Tannaim are not speaking at all about physical seasons and
> > climates, but about the middah in which Hashem decided to have the
> > world run, Tishrei signifying din and strict justice, Nissan signifying
> > rachamim...
>
> With my suggested framing, it is easier to see the two approaches as
> related. Not that I have details about what that relationship would
> be. Infants rely on Rachamim (rechem / Av haRachaman)... Adults have
> a past for Din to respond to - but that's only real adults, not
> structurally adult newborns. As I said, I am just smelling hints of
> where they would be related.
>
> > Tosafos (RH 27a) poses a contradiction in the piyyutim of R. Elazar
> > HaKalir. He says that in the Geshem piyyut recited on Shemini Atzeres, R.
> > Kalir states that the world was created in Tishrei aligning with Rebbi
> > Eliezer), whereas in his piyyut for Pesach he states that the world was
> > created in Nissan (aligning with Rebbi Yehoshua).
>
> > Tosafos answers that Rabbeinu Tam said "Eilu VeEilu Divrei Elokim Chaim."
> > He then adds: "And one may say that in Tishrei the thought rose to
> > create, but it wasn't created until Nissan." I think it is more likely
> > that the second statement is an explanation of the first, rather than
> > an alternate one.
>
> "Hayom *haras* olam" -- RH as the day the world was "conceived", 6 months
> before it was actually "born".
>

I thought of that, too.

>
> > But it occurred to me that we know that Tosafos (Chagigah 13a)
> > considers R. Eliezer HaKalir to be the Tanna Eliezer, son of Shimon
> > bar Yochai. What is Tosafos' meaning, then, by the words "eilu v'eilu
> > divrei Elokim Chaim? ...
>
> That bas qol was about Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai. And yet, BH stil
> taught shittas Beis Shammai first. (And not just as a foil, a hava
> amina to upshlug as a buttress to their own position.) Seems to me one
> is supposed to hold eilu va'eilu even when you are one of the eilu! A
> tanna has the anavah necessary to accept that there is truth to the
> other tzad too.
>

True, but as I read it, the two "eilu"'s are Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi
Yehoshua. R. Elazar (Hakalir) is the one, according to Rabbeinu Tam, saying
eilu v'eilu regarding their opinions and offering a third one that tweaks
them.

>
> You and I have discussed here in the past what eilu va'eilu even means
> when the machloqes is about a historical statement in Tanakh. But that's
> not what you're asking here. It is just making it harder for me to
> imagine what it being asked of R Eliezer..


I don't follow what you mean. Do you mean what is being asked (by me) of R.
Elazar HaKalir as per Rabbeinu Tam?
.

> ..And Tosafos's image of R Elezer haKalir must have accepted that he was
> playing Beis Shammai's role in this machloqes.
>

nolo comprende...

>
> Seems to me we "hold like" R Yehoshua -- the world was created in Nissan.
> That's what your closing sentence implies to me:
> > One problem that remains, however, is that I have not been able to find
> > any piyyut in our machzorim, Geshem on Shemini Atzeres or otherwise,
> > that says anything about the world being created in Tishrei!


I was just wondering what Tosafos' source was. In my mind, without much
basis, I thought we hold like Rabbeinu Tam's tweak--that Rebbi Eliezer was
right in the sense of the "thought," but Rebbi Yehoshuja was right in the
sense of the actual creation. With "Hayom Haras Olam" supporting this, as
you said.

My son Yehoshua tells me the Ritva on RH 27a says that Rav, being a Tanna
who could argue against other Tannaim, composed the Rosh HaShana tefillah
and poskened like Rebbi Eliezer against Rebbi Yehoshua.

>


> Even as "the veldt knows" Maaseh Bereishis was the last week in Elul,
> and RH is Adam's birthday. (And so much for the aggadita in AZ about
> Adam's holiday in December, which depends on the cheit of eating from
> the Eitz haDaas having happened when days were shrinking. My standard
> devar Torah for the Shabbos nearest Dec 25th...)
>

AZ 8a says Adam was concerned the days were shortening because of his sin.
This could have been months after he committed it.

Zvi Lampel
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Message: 4
From: Joel Rich
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2022 20:21:50 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Eating at Others' homes


What is your pulpit rabbi?s policy concerning eating at his parishioner?s
homes? What halachic considerations should go into such a policy?
GCT
Joel Rich
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Message: 5
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2022 17:51:45 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Piyyutim of HaKalir Regarding the Creation of


I wrote:

Tosafos (RH 27a) poses a contradiction in the piyyutim of R. Elazar
> HaKalir. He says that in the Geshem piyyut recited on Shemini Atzeres, R.
> Kalir states that the world was created in Tishrei aligning with Rebbi
> Eliezer), whereas in his piyyut for Pesach he states that the world was
> created in Nissan (aligning with Rebbi Yehoshua).
>
...and asked:

>  I have not been able to find any piyyut in our machzorim, Geshem on
> Shemini Atzeres or otherwise, that says anything about the world being
> created in Tishrei!
>
There is an "added piyyut" that some say before "Geshem,"  which goes
through the months of the year beginning with the phrase "Yiftach eretz
l'yesha." Some machzorim have illustrations of each month's zodiac sign at
each month's paragraph. It is indeed authored by R. Elazar HaKalir. For the
month of Cheshbon (which of course follows Tishrei) it asks for rain
"lest [the earth] dries up like the 'Bul' (=Cheshbon) Mabul. Placing the
drying up of the Mabul in Cheshbon, identifying it with what the Torah
calls "the second month of the year," aligns with the opinion that the
world was created the month before, namely Tishrei.

Compliments of my son's friend, Matisyahu Adams.

>
>
>
> Zvi Lampel
>
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Message: 6
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2022 08:31:49 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Piyyutim of HaKalir Regarding the Creation of


CORRECTION: It's Rebbi Elazar Hakalir, not Rebbi Eliezer HaKalir. Which
makes sense if he's identical, as per Tosafos, to R. Elazar ben Shimon.

Zvi Lampel
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Message: 7
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2022 17:28:09 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] The Mishna on Daf so-and-so


At the moment, I'm listening to a recorded shiur, in which the speaker
says, and these are his exact words, "There's a mishna in Yuma daf peh heh
amud beis."

That phrasing is quite common. More than ubiquitous, I'd venture to
describe it as universal. But I just don't get it. I'm hoping someone can
explain it to me.

If someone is quoting a Mishna, and wants to tell you where it is found,
why not tell me the perek? Or even better, the perek number, and mishna
number? Why does everyone tell where it can be found in the *gemara*?

If I want to know more about this particular mishna, the first place *I'm*
going to look is in the Bartenura and Tosfos Yom Tov, et al. (To be honest,
Kehati is more likely, but you get my point.) If I want to know even more,
*then* I'll turn to the gemara (which I'll be able to find because those
perushim have probably told me which daf it is on. But that's not what
people do. This maggid shiur cited only the gemara, so I have to pull out
my gemara, find that daf 85b is in Perek 8, and then skim through the
mishnayos until I find it at #9.

Am I weird? How do other people react when they hear a Mishna quoted? Do
they go straight to the Gemara? Or do most people look to see how the
perushim of the mishna explain it?

advTHANKSance

Akiva Miller
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Message: 8
From: Joel Rich
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2022 18:08:46 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] eiva/shalom


Anyone aware of any detailed analysis comparing the concepts of mishum eiva
and darkei shalom?
GT
Joel Rich
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Message: 9
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2022 06:27:11 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] The Shevatim - free and independent?


The Yom Kippur Musaf refers to the Kohen Gadol's viduy three times. (If
"viduy" is not the correct term, someone please correct me.)

First, he says, "Chatasi - I sinned, me and my family."
Next, "Chatasi - I sinned, me and my family and the Bnei Aharon, Your holy
people."
Third, "Chat'oo - They sinned, Your people Bnei Yisrael."

I noticed, and was bothered, that in this progression from "me" to "them",
we do not find any "we".

My first thought was that "we" should have appeared in the second vidui,
"We: me and all the kohanim." The simple answer is that as Kohen Gadol, he
is their leader and responsible for them; they are tafel to him, so "Me" is
appropriate. Indeed, the exact same logic applies to the first vidui: Every
baal habayis should take this responsibility of leadership: "*I* sinned -
me and my family."

This left me wondering about the third vidui. Why didn't the Kohen Gadol
continue in this same progression, and say, "I sinned: me, and my family,
and the Kohanim, and all Bnei Yisrael."?

The only answer I can come up with is that this illustrates the divisions
between the shevatim. The shevatim were essentially separate nations,
despite being united for some purposes, and this vidui highlights the
separateness. Once the Kohen Gadol's vidui goes outside of his personal
shevet, it is no longer "me', but becomes "them".

I offer the above as my own conjecture. All comments are welcome. (If
anyone wants to discuss how the shevet of Greater Levi fits in, go for it.)

(As an aside, as a child growing up, I viewed the 50 united States as
merely administrative areas. It took a long time for me to realize - and
even now I often forget - that in truth, "these united Colonies are, and of
Right ought to be Free and Independent States", which banded together only
for specific purposes. The independent Shevatim, and the united Bnei
Yisrael, are similar.)

Akiva Miller
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