Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 100

Sat, 11 Dec 2021

• 1. The Real Story of XMAS and New Years (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Repeating during davening (Michael Poppers)
• 3. Re: Repeating during davening (Simon Montagu)
• 4. Re: Repeating during davening (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Repeating during davening (Micha Berger)
• 6. Is a Velad a Nefesh? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Repeating during davening (Micha Berger)
• 8. family room (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Repeating during davening (Micha Berger)
• 10. A "Coal" of Metal (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: family room (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: family room (Zev Sero)

Please listen to the talk at

<https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?a=5768>https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?a=5768

given by Rabbi Lawrence Kelemen.

Rabbi Lawrence Kelemen is a Professor of Education at Neve 
Yerushalayim College of Jewish Studies for Women in Jerusalem, where 
he lectures undergraduate and graduate students in modern and 
medieval philosophy. After receiving his undergraduate degree from 
UCLA, Rabbi Kelemen continued with his graduate studies at Harvard 
University, and later completed 12 years of post-graduate field 
research in the Middle East. Rabbi Kelemen brings to his lectures and 
writings his impressive academic background, as well as a myriad of 
life experiences, including those of a newspaper editor, skiing 
instructor and radio anchorman. Now an accomplished lecturer and 
author, Rabbi Kelemen electrifies parents, teachers , and university 
students across North and South America, Europe and the Middle with 
his wit, humor, wisdom and gifts of insight into the essence of 
living a meaningful life. Rabbi Kelemen is the author of Permission 
to Believe (1990)

I promise you this talk is an eye opener. Yitzchok Levine

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To RADE's excellent response in Avodah V39n99, I just wanted to add an
example of what I would label hypercorrection, in the sense of avoiding
repetition when it's intentional.  In *nusach Ashk'naz*, the Q'dushah of
Musaf on Shabbos v'YT starts each ShaTZ section w/ the last word of the
given *pasuq*: the section after "Qadosh...K'vodo" begins w/ "K'vodo"; the
section after "Baruch...Mimqomo" begins w/ "Mimqomo"; ...and yes, the
section after "Shma...Echad" begins w/ "Echad" (e.g. see "Siddur Avodas
Yisrael," https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=42807&;st=&pgnum=256) --
many communities, but not all, elide that "Echad" out of a "Modim
Modim"-type concern, but the comparison is improper, as no *oveid avodah
zarah* would say "Echad" to each of multiple entities.

All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 9:12 PM allan.engel--- via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> Correct me if I'm wrong (and that's not an infrequent occurrence) but there
> are two reasons to be concerned about repetition.
>
> a) Where the words repeated are the problem, and the concern is the
> suspicion (or the actuality) of Avoda Zara.or Shituf (eg Modim Modim).
>
> b) In a part of davening where repetition would be considered a Hafsakah.
>

I would add to a): where the repeated words taken at face value give a new
distorted meaning. For example, one often hears in Shabbat Musaf "Yismehu
bemalkutkha shomrei shomrei shomrei Shabbat", which makes me want to ask
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
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On 6/12/21 22:05, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
> no /oveid avodah zarah/would say "Echad" to each of multiple entities.

The dominant avoda zara in this country does exactly that.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name       happiness in 5782

The AhS OC 338:8 gets from hil' Shabbos to chazanim by finding a limud
zekhus for the fact that "ba'avonoseinu harabbim" so many use tuning
forks on Shabbos.

Near the end of the se'if he learns out from the issur of repeating
Shema the implication that if it's not Shema (I would add: or Modim),
repetitions are allowed.

That said, he has a problem with the whole turning tefillah into a drawn
out performance, which he takes for granted is a distraction from the
primary goal. "Maybe in truth there is no prohibition in it, but it
is good before G-d to flee from it. And we came lilmod zekhus on the
zera qodesh, whose eyes are sealed."

Shu"t Chevel Nachalaso 12:3 (R Yaakov Epstein b. 1954, Machon haTorah
vehaAretz) has a nice collection of sources.
<https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%91%D7%9C_%D7%A0%D7%97%D7%9C%D7%AA%D7%95_%D7%99%D7%91_%D7%92>
Including:

Shu"t Mahara"m Shiq #31 -- you don't stop him mid-tefillah, but kol hamosif
    goreia, so you must teach him to stop. He spells out five reasons
    1- Bal tosif
    2- Dovrei sheqer (depending on what the resulting phrase means or implies)
    3- Hefseq, as the repetion is zemer in the middle of tefillah
    4- Asa'uni banekha kelei zemer (the ban against turning Shir haShirim into
       song lyrics)
    5- Haqriveihu lefechasekha (would you talk to a human kind that way?)

IM OC 2:22 -- who as is typical, holds like the AhS

Yabia Omer 6 OC 7.4 -- who quotes the same gemara as the AhS but is
    medayeiq that even repeating other words is problematic, if
    not quasi-heretical. He lemaaseh holds like the Maharam Shiq,
    that it's not like repeating Shema, but it's still (in his words)
    "kemislotzeitz umesacheiq bemilim".





On Tue, Dec 07, 2021 at 02:16:29AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> On 6/12/21 22:05, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
>> no /oveid avodah zarah/would say "Echad" to each of multiple entities.

> The dominant avoda zara in this country does exactly that.

I consider one popular tune to the pasuq of Zekhariah said after
Aleinu* particularly Xian:

    Vene'emar:
    Vehayah H' leMelekh al kol ha'aretz
    bayom hahu, bayom hahu
    yihyeh H' echad
    ushemo, ushemo, ushemo echad.

Their religion has a god with three names (ushemo x 3) who allegedly
comes to earth twice (bayom hahu bayom hahu). Not ours.

I describe the pasuq as after Aleinu instead of as part of Aleinu because
it's later than Yehoshua. How could A"l K"en N"ekaveh be attributed to
Yehoshua at Ai after Akhan's identification and teshuvah, even if you
take that attribution midrashically, if it contains a verse from more
than 8 centuries later?

The Gra didn't say the pasuq daily. He considered it accidentally borrowed
from the 10 pesuqim of Malkhios.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Good decisions come from experience;
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Experience comes from bad decisions.
Author: Widen Your Tent                   - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Rashi (Sanhedrin 72b "yatza rosho") holds that a fetus "any time it
didn't go out to the air of the world, lav nefesh hu - so it is possible
to kill it and to save the mother".

Comparing the Rambam's ruling (Hil' Rotzeiach 1:9) where the velad that
didn't crown may be killed to save the mother "kerotzeiach" and the baby
who did crown did not, the Bach concludes that the Rambam holds similarly.

Which makes the gemara's comment (BB 123a) about this week's parashah
interesting. This is the famous aggadita about Yocheved being born as
they entered Mitzrayim. And this is enough to count her among (emph added)
"kol haNEFESH beis Yaaqov haba'ah Mitzraymah". (46:27, although the same
point could be made of the 33 nefesh descended from Leiah in v. 15.)

Notice that benei Yoseif are also counted. So, while the pasuq says
"haba'ah Mitzraymah", the travels of the unborn Yocheved isn't necessarily
one of the nefashos being counted. And Rashi (and maybe the Rambam)
would have to bedavqa say she wasn't, as she wasn't a "nefesh" yet. Just
that Yocheved (like Menasheh and Efrayim) ends up there.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Never must we think that the Jewish element
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   in us could exist without the human element
Author: Widen Your Tent      or vice versa.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 09:16:07PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I will close by giving some examples to demonstrate how repeating a word or
> phrase can enhance the meaning of a pasuk:
> 
> Yeshaya 6:3 might have been "Kadosh Hashem Tz'vakos", but instead it says
> "Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh Hashem Tz'vakos"

But that enhancement isn't emphasis, but says three different
things. Qadosh in heaven, Qadosh on this earth. As per the Targum Yonasan
we say in UVa leTzion.

(BTW, note the parallel in Birkhas Qedushah: Atah Qadosh (in shamayim),
veShimkha Qadosh (here), uqedoshim BEKHOL YOM (time).)

It would require the person repeating words with incredible wisdom and
kavvanah to reproduce that effect. And then your new implication, which
couldn't be said without the repetition, isn't what's in the siddur.

Repeating for emphasis would seem less high of a bar. Even repeating the
same words to have three different kavvanos.

But Qadosh, Qadosh, Qadosh H' Tzevaqos is a different pasuq than had
it said qadosh once. It is making a progression that is fundamental to
knowing what the mal'akhim mean.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. 
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   "I want to do it." - is weak. 
Author: Widen Your Tent      "I am doing it." - that is the right way.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk

My note to a Rabbi re: "family room" at chapel:
Just curious whether you've ever gotten any traction with people not doing
the open house at the funeral chapel. I'm sure there are some people who
know you're not allowed to comfort, it just seems like a big chukat
hagoyim/lfnei iver.  Any thoughts on this practice?
KT
Joel Rich

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On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 09:16:07PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I will close by giving some examples to demonstrate how repeating a word or
> phrase can enhance the meaning of a pasuk:
> 
> Yeshaya 6:3 might have been "Kadosh Hashem Tz'vakos", but instead it says
> "Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh Hashem Tz'vakos"

But that enhancement isn't emphasis, but says three different
things. Qadosh in heaven, Qadosh on this earth. As per the Targum Yonasan
we say in UVa leTzion.

(BTW, note the parallel in Birkhas Qedushah: Atah Qadosh (in shamayim),
veShimkha Qadosh (here), uqedoshim BEKHOL YOM (time).)

It would require the person repeating words with incredible wisdom and
kavvanah to reproduce that effect. And then your new implication, which
couldn't be said without the repetition, isn't what's in the siddur.

Repeating for emphasis would seem less high of a bar. Even repeating the
same words to have three different kavvanos.

But Qadosh, Qadosh, Qadosh H' Tzevaqos is a different pasuq than had
it said qadosh once. It is making a progression that is fundamental to
knowing what the mal'akhim mean.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. 
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   "I want to do it." - is weak. 
Author: Widen Your Tent      "I am doing it." - that is the right way.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk

The following is wrong, just explaining my hava amina: I would have
thought that heating metal to anneal it would be bishul. You're changing
something using heat, which sure sounds like cooking. Whereas heating it
until it glows would be havarah, as the physics isn't /that/ different
whether it is air glowing or metal glowing.

But in Friday's AhS Yomi (OC 334:1) we encounter the Rambam (Hil' Shabbos)
saying the reverse.

9:6: Someone who melts any type of mateches (which I am taking to mean
metal, and not "any type of iron") to the point that it becomes a gacheles
-- it is a toladah of mevashel.

12:1: Someone who heats metal in order to quench it in water [to
strengthen it] -- it is a toladah of mav'ir, and chayav.

The Raavad (12:1) is awake to the difference, and asks why not mevashel
like in pereq 9.

RYME defends the Rambam, but my hava amina seems to me more compelling
than the defense. And that's why I am writing in, for help.

The AhS says that heating in order to anneal it isn't mav'ir it all the
way like making a gacheles would. Therefore, it is a toladah of mav'ir.
Heating all the way is what we do for bishul, and therefore making a
gacheles is a toladah of bishul.

But aside from my thinking a gacheles is very similar to fire:

Take wood for example. Heating wood all the way is mav'ir. You may should
able to "cook" wood at temperatures between yad soleded bo and the wood's
flash point (around 572 deg F / 300 deg C).

But the same is true for most foods. Heat meat partway, it cooks. Heat
meat to something like 600 deg F / 316 deg C), and it will burn.

So again, it would seem to me that annealing metal is to making it glow as
cooking is to setting it on fire. If bishul is possible without oxidation,
a given for the Rambam (or Rashi or Tosafos), why isn't the glowing metal
"aish"?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   how can he appreciate the worth of another?
Author: Widen Your Tent                - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef

On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 03:55:14AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> My note to a Rabbi re: "family room" at chapel:
> Just curious whether you've ever gotten any traction with people not
> doing the open house at the funeral chapel...

FWIW, around here no one visits the family room except to ask logistical
questions. It's a quiet place for the family to group, discuss halakhah
with their rav and coordinating who is doing what at the levayah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 7/12/21 22:55, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> My note to a Rabbi re: ?family room? at chapel:
> Just curious whether you?ve ever gotten any traction with people not 
> doing the open house at the funeral chapel. I?m sure there are some 
> people who know you?re not allowed to comfort, it just seems like a big 
> chukat hagoyim/lfnei iver.? Any thoughts on this practice?

What exactly is this practice?  I've never heard of it.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name       happiness in 5782


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