Volume 39: Number 74
Tue, 24 Aug 2021
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: cantorwolberg
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 02:48:42 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] aseih docheh lo taaseh
I think that it is because we cannot know what the world needs, or
what we ourselves need, that the mishnah tells us to be as cautious of
mitzvos qalos as we are of chamuros. Because even though one mitzvah
is a 4 and the other a 10, maybe what the 4 whatevers are is more what
you and your part of Creation needs more than the 10. And therefore
(the mishnah continues) we don't know that the sechar of the mitzvah
chamurah would be greater.
A true kleptomaniac would not logically receive onesh for stealing.
I, on the other hand, who has not an ounce of desire to steal should not receive s?char for not stealing because it was
never the slightest temptation for me.
Another analogy is that of the alcoholic. An alcoholic struggles a whole
life to be sober. Personally, I hate alcohol and don?t deserve any credit
for abstaining. So, of course, we can?t know the s?char of any mitzvah as
it relates to specific individuals. Again, it boils down to knowing the
whole picture which only God knows.
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Message: 2
From: Jay F. Shachter
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:55:50 -0500 (EDT)
Subject: [Avodah] Deuteronomy 22:17
>
> Specifically, it [TSBP] says that "ve'eileh besulei biti" does *not*
> refer to "bloody sheets" or whatever, but to witnesses who refute
> the husband's witnesses.
>
Yet another case of a contributor to this mailing list making an
unqualified statement that should be qualified. Please stop doing
that.
Our Sages said a lot of different things, and they said a lot of
contradictory things (sometimes they even contradicted themselves,
even the greatest of them, as I pointed out in a recent posting).
Read Ramban on Deuteronomy 22:17. He disagrees with Rashi, he says
that the verse means, literally, a bloody sheet, and he gives better
and more authoritative sources than Rashi.
Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
6424 North Whipple Street
Chicago IL 60645-4111
(1-773)7613784 landline
(1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice
j...@m5.chicago.il.us
http://m5.chicago.il.us
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"
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Message: 3
From: Isaac Balbin
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 19:09:34 +1000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] OU Mini Seedless Cucumbers
On 21 Aug 2021, at 6:09 pm, Akiva Miller wrote wrote:
> I think the simplest example of this (for those who drink cholov
> hacompanies) is plain old milk. Do you need to worry about the vitamins and
> other additives? No, you don't need to, but you can worry if you want to.
That is incorrect. As soon as milk has additives then those additives
must be checked. I do not know the basis for a contrary view.
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Message: 4
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 13:08:24 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] What is the preferable time to say selichos?
From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
Q. What is preferable? To wake up early and recite Selichos before dawn
(a.k.a. alos hashachar, which is 72 minutes before sunrise), or to stay up
late and recite Selichos after chatzos (midnight)? What about saying
selichos after alos or after neitz hachama (sunrise)?
A. Rav Yitzchak Zylberstein (Chashukei Chemed, Yoma 22a) writes that the
preferred time to recite Selichos is before dawn. This can be inferred from
the Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva 3:4) who writes that it is customary to awake
at night and recite Selichos until the morning. In addition, Mishnah
Berurah (581:1) writes that the end of the night is an eis rotzon (a
propitious time when G-d is receptive to prayer), implying that the early
morning is the most appropriate time for Selichos. Finally, the She?arim
Metzuyanim B?Halacah (Yoma 22a) notes that Selichos recited in the early
morning is more effective, since it is recited through greater sacrifice;
it is more difficult to wake up early than to stay up late.
May Selichos be recited after sunrise? Rav Chaim Kanievsky (Divrei Si?ach,
vol. 134) holds that it is preferable to recite Selichos after Chatzos than
to recite Selichos later in the day after sunrise. On the otherhand, Rav
Elyashav and Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach take an opposite opinion and write
that it is better to recite Selichos in the daytime (even after sunrise)
than to say it after chatzos (quoted in MB Dirshu MB, 581:1). Similiary,
the Aruch Hashulchan writes that it has been customary to say selichos in
the morning after sunrise for many generations.
On the other hand, Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l (Igros Moshe OC, 2:102) writes
that kabalistically, the period after chatzos is as much an eis ratzon as
early dawn, and for this reason, for many generations, it has been
customary to recite Selichos at night after chatzos. This is also the
opinion of the Minchas Elazar (the previous Munkatcher Rebbi), as recorded
in Divrei Torah (141:76).
Even those who recommend saying selichos in early morning before sunrise
agree that on the first night of Selichos, on Motzei Shabbos, it is
preferable to recite Selichos after Chatzos. This is because we wish to
combine the merit of Shabbos together with the first Selichos. Therefore,
we begin Selichos after Chatzos, and do not wait for the early morning
(Chashukei Chemed, ibid.).
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Message: 5
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 11:18:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What is the preferable time to say selichos?
At 10:43 AM 8/23/2021, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 01:08:24PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
> >
> > Q. What is preferable? To wake up early and recite Selichos before dawn
> > (a.k.a. alos hashachar, which is 72 minutes before sunrise), or to stay
> > up late and recite Selichos after chatzos (midnight)? What about saying
> > selichos after alos or after neitz hachama (sunrise)?
>
>Fine, I'll have to learn that "neitz hachamah" is accepted Yiddish /
>Judeo-English. In Hebrew, the "ha-" of "haneitz" has a qamatz, it's
>hif'il (= the causing of shining). After all, the AhS drops the hei.
As I have said more than once, "Only maskilim speak and pronounce
Hebrew properly!" >:-}
>In short, the question of when alos is should be as unresolved as knowing
>when tzeis would be.
See <https://hakirah.org/Vol26Gewirtz.pdf>A Categorization of Errors
Encountered in the Study of Zemanim
for more problems with determining Zemanim.
>I would have added that one of the Ashkenazi selichos for that night
>actually opens BeMotza'ei Menuchah qadamnukha techilah. It seems tht the
>fact of it being Motza"Sh is part of why we launch the whole series of
>selichos just then. Beyond just the right time to say that particular
>day's.
My late father-in-law told me that in the Uranian town that he came
from before WW II, the first selichos was said early Sunday
morning, not on Saturday night.
Most yeshivas do not say the first selichos at about 1 AM. There is
a minyan in the YI of Midwood that says the first selichos on Sunday
morning at 6:30 AM.
At these minyanim the phrase "BeMotza'ei Menuchah qadamnukha
techilah" is modified.
>Meanwhile when it comes to selichos, Sepharadim say them the whole month,
>and it's Ashkenazim who only start at shavua shechal bo.
My understanding is that the Sefardim say the exact same selichos
everyday. This is what I was told.
YL
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 10:43:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What is the preferable time to say selichos?
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 01:08:24PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
>
> Q. What is preferable? To wake up early and recite Selichos before dawn
> (a.k.a. alos hashachar, which is 72 minutes before sunrise), or to stay
> up late and recite Selichos after chatzos (midnight)? What about saying
> selichos after alos or after neitz hachama (sunrise)?
Fine, I'll have to learn that "neitz hachamah" is accepted Yiddish /
Judeo-English. In Hebrew, the "ha-" of "haneitz" has a qamatz, it's
hif'il (= the causing of shining). After all, the AhS drops the hei.
Alos haChamah is 4 mil walking time before haneitz. which gives us
the first two possible opinions:
1- 72 min before -- what the OU assumes
2- 90 min before -- which would be against the Gra
Or, we assume that alos is defined by how much light is available, and
therefore it is only 4 mil before on a particular day of the year. Which
gets us
3- when the sun is 16.1 deg below the horizon -- true for 72 min before
haneitz on the equionox in Y-m.
Etc...
In short, the question of when alos is should be as unresolved as knowing
when tzeis would be.
...
> Even those who recommend saying selichos in early morning before sunrise
> agree that on the first night of Selichos, on Motzei Shabbos, it is
> preferable to recite Selichos after Chatzos. This is because we wish to
> combine the merit of Shabbos together with the first Selichos. Therefore,
> we begin Selichos after Chatzos, and do not wait for the early morning
> (Chashukei Chemed, ibid.).
I would have added that one of the Ashkenazi selichos for that night
actually opens BeMotza'ei Menuchah qadamnukha techilah. It seems tht the
fact of it being Motza"Sh is part of why we launch the whole series of
selichos just then. Beyond just the right time to say that particular
day's.
Tangent... I noticed that
When it comes to aveilus, Sepharadim only observe Shavua shechal bo and
their three week observance is only about not making weddings. While
Ashk have real aveilus customs the whole period.
Meanwhile when it comes to selichos, Sepharadim say them the whole month,
and it's Ashkenazim who only start at shavua shechal bo.
(Although in this case, there is a minimum of 4 times, so it can be up
to 10 days. Unlike the Seph mourning, which is fast day alone when the
9th of Av is Shabbos or Sunday.)
Anyone want to venture a theory as to what this says about Ashk vs Seph
hashkafic differences?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp how can he appreciate the worth of another?
Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 12:23:04 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What is the preferable time to say selichos?
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:18:31AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Most yeshivas do not say the first selichos at about 1 AM. There is a
> minyan in the YI of Midwood that says the first selichos on Sunday morning
> at 6:30 AM.
> At these minyanim the phrase "BeMotza'ei Menuchah qadamnukha techilah" is
> modified.
Modifying the selichah doesn't change authorial intent. The fact remains
that we accepted into Selichos one that itself says midnight selichos
are preferable. At least the first night.
>> Meanwhile when it comes to selichos, Sepharadim say them the whole month,
>> and it's Ashkenazim who only start at shavua shechal bo.
> My understanding is that the Sefardim say the exact same selichos everyday.
> This is what I was told.
Yes, that's correct. (Although a new tangent atop my tangent.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger People were created to be loved.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp Things were created to be used.
Author: Widen Your Tent The reason why the world is in chaos is that
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF things are being loved, people are being used.
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