Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 63

Mon, 19 Jul 2021

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 16:33:53 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Studying Secular Subjects:The Opinions of the Torah


Please see the article at

<https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrC4SuZT_BgH0EALQ4PxQt.;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1626390553/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fweb.stevens.edu%2fgolem%2fllevine%2frsrh%2flevi_torah_leaders_secular.pdf/RK=2/RS=rz2x11QBlKY3xZDvVjo.Ghf4OdA->https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrC4SuZT_BgH0EALQ4PxQt.;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1626390553/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fweb.stevens.edu%2fgolem%2fllevine%2frsrh%2flevi_torah_leaders_secular.pdf/RK=2/RS=rz2x11QBlKY3xZDvVjo.Ghf4OdA-

These are pages from Dr. Yehudah (Leo)  Levi's book Torah Study give 
the responses of R. Avraham Yitzchak Bloch of Telshe, R. Elchanan 
Wasserman of Baranowicz, R. Barukh Ber Leibowitz of Slobodka-Kamenitz 
and R. Yosef Rozin of Rogoczov to a young Rabbi Shimon Schwab's query 
about pursuing secular studies.

YL

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Message: 2
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 16:38:25 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] A Response to Rav Dessler Regarding Secular Study


From

<https://cross-currents.com/2010/07/12/a-response-to-rav-dessler-regarding-secular-study/>https://cross-currents.com/2010/07/12/a-response-to-rav-dessler-regarding-secular-study/

Most of our readers are familiar with the famous comparison made by 
Rav Dessler zt"l in Michtav Me-Eliyahu vol.3 pgs 355-360. Rav Dessler 
pointed out that chinuch in Germany, which included secular study 
according to the directives of R. Samson Raphael Hirsch, succeeded in 
producing laypeople almost uniformly observant. It did not, however, 
produce Torah giants. Eastern Europe, however, which allowed no 
secular involvement, produced many Torah luminaries. The price it 
paid, however, was the many dropouts from observance altogether.

Rav Dessler's analysis was first published in 1963. Three years 
later, the journal Ha-Ma'ayan published an anonymous response. This 
response is not as well known as R. Dessler's piece, and deserves 
some attention and thought, whatever people decide is the proper 
course for them.

The writer of this response was later revealed to be Rabbi Shimon Schwab.

See the above URL for more.

YL

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Message: 3
From: Joseph Kaplan
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 20:47:19 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Coeducational


In the ongoing discussion about teaching secular education, RZS wrote to
prove a point: ?But everyone will agree that that [coeducation] is
bediavad; surely nobody will argue that it's lechatchila, let alone that
it's actually desirable and should be done even when there's no pressure to
have it!?

Many say that RYBS, in starting Maimonides, did not agree, and, in fact,
did argue it was a lechatchila and desirable in elementary and high school.
I understand that some say he too believed it was a bedieved, but there?s
lots of scholarship for the lechatchila side. My purpose is not to convince
anyone what the Rav believed and, quite frankly, we?ll never know for sure.
My only purpose is to note that according to many serious people, Zev?s
statements that ?everyone will agree? and ?no one will argue? might be a
bit too broad. 

Joseph

Sent from my iPhone


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Message: 4
From: Joseph Kaplan
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:52:53 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Coeducational


Obviously, I read the Rav?s letters to R. Rosenfeld very differently than
you.  Since they?re now publicly available everyone can read them and draw
their own conclusions. Similarly, my understanding of his attitude towards
the Maimonides School is very different from yours. Unfortunately, the Rav
never wrote the article about teaching Torah to females that he mentioned
in his letter so we?ll never know for sure. 

I was very friendly with R. Rosenfeld?s so I?m upset that I never knew of
his correspondence with the Rav during his lifetime. I would so much have
loved to discuss it with him. 

One correction and two additions. Correction: R. Rosenfeld did not run
HILI. He was simply a member of its Board of Education. It?s principal who
ran the school was R. Dr. Harold I Leiman ? the father of Prof. Shnayer
Leiman and a scholar and highly regarded educator in his own right. 

Addition #1: What I always find fascinating about this exchange of
correspondence is that it had absolutely no impact on HILI?s limudei kodesh
curriculum. Through fifth grade all classes were coed so, of course, boys
and girls learned the exact same materials. But in sixth grade, the Hebrew
(though not secular studies) classes were split by sex, with the girls
learning just mishna and the boys learning both mishna and gemorah.
Interestingly, that?s when they stopped teaching ivris b?ivris because it
was supposedly too difficult to teach Gemara in Hebrew. 

Addition #2: While the Rav?s letters were in English, interestingly R.
Rosenfeld?s letter to him was in Hebrew. Although it did not make it into
R. Helfgott?s book, I happen to have a copy of it. 

Joseph

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 18, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
> ?On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 08:47:19PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
>> Many say that RYBS, in starting Maimonides, did not agree, and, in fact,
>> did argue it was a lechatchila and desirable in elementary and high
>> school. I understand that some say he too believed it was a bedieved,
>> but there's lots of scholarship for the lechatchila side...
> 
> FWIW, my own take after reading his two letters to Rabbi Leonard Rosenfeld
> (who at the time ran HILI) found in R Nati Helfgott's Community, Covenant
> and Comittment is that RYBS believed it was a lekhat-chillah response
> to a bedi'eved situation.
> 
> He would have been happier had the need not come up, but since it did,
> avoiding making Maimonides co-ed would have been a mistake.
> 
> (There is such an approach to RYBS's attitude toward Modernity in general:
> Judaism was stronger and superior in Brisk. But remaining there isn't
> an option. If we are forced to deal with the outside world, confronting
> it and the resulting dialectic head-on is superior to trying to stay in
> a bubble.)
> 
> This is aside from RYBS strongly objecting to the proposal that YU save
> money by combining YC's and Stern's campuses. Even though I presume he
> realized this would cost the women of Stern in terms of depth of their
> Jewish education.
> 
> -Micha
> 
> -- 
> Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aishdas.org%2Fasp&;amp;data=04%7C01%7Cjkaplan%40tenzerlunin.com%7C5dbca4286e8c45b557d708d949e75b3c%7C6b638f80e9414088a6d10c1d548f720e%7C0%7C0%7C637622080297173481%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=LSJHjChyj%2BodZ4GEouI1FnXnygF%2F00TIyhxE9lXYkFU%3D&amp;reserved=0
>   and her returnees, through righteousness.
> Author: Widen Your Tent
> - https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famzn.to%2F2JRxnDF&;amp;data=04%7C01%7Cjkaplan%40tenzerlunin.com%7C5dbca4286e8c45b557d708d949e75b3c%7C6b638f80e9414088a6d10c1d548f720e%7C0%7C0%7C637622080297173481%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=wZURz%2FcfZI%2B2SoBDQT4AE5JZ%2BlV6aqNtI6VtqcFNBYE%3D&amp;reserved=0


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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 08:27:00 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Coeducational


On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 08:47:19PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
> Many say that RYBS, in starting Maimonides, did not agree, and, in fact,
> did argue it was a lechatchila and desirable in elementary and high
> school. I understand that some say he too believed it was a bedieved,
> but there's lots of scholarship for the lechatchila side...

FWIW, my own take after reading his two letters to Rabbi Leonard Rosenfeld
(who at the time ran HILI) found in R Nati Helfgott's Community, Covenant
and Comittment is that RYBS believed it was a lekhat-chillah response
to a bedi'eved situation.

He would have been happier had the need not come up, but since it did,
avoiding making Maimonides co-ed would have been a mistake.

(There is such an approach to RYBS's attitude toward Modernity in general:
Judaism was stronger and superior in Brisk. But remaining there isn't
an option. If we are forced to deal with the outside world, confronting
it and the resulting dialectic head-on is superior to trying to stay in
a bubble.)

This is aside from RYBS strongly objecting to the proposal that YU save
money by combining YC's and Stern's campuses. Even though I presume he
realized this would cost the women of Stern in terms of depth of their
Jewish education.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF



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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 15:52:43 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Coeducational


On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 01:52:53PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan wrote:
> Obviously, I read the Rav's letters to R. Rosenfeld very differently
> than you...

Sorry, but I am not sure you do. Let me make sure I was clear enough
that you are disagreeing with what I actually tried to say.


We both agree that RYBS held that co-education was the correct and
lekhatchilah approach to the reality we're in. In fact, I think we would
entirely agree on how we understand his positions on teaching theoretical
Oral Torah to women (eg his gemara shiur in Stern) and on co-education.

In terms of his position on the optimal response to the world we're in.


Where I disagreed was less about education for girls and Torah study
for women than about RYBS's attitude toward modernity and the condition
altogether:

What I am adding is that I don't think RYBS thought this reality is ideal,
or even as close to the ideal as the world R' Chaim lived in. I believe
RYBS felt our reality was not as condusive for living according to the
Torah than the world our ancestors lived in before Europe started that
final collapse from around us

So, I don't think he was Modern Orthodox as most people would think of
it as much as someone who had similar strategy for living as an Orthodox
Jew in the modern world. I don't think he considered Modernity as part
of the ideal or even something that makes living the ideal easier. But,
it's the reality, and we need to find the best response to it.


Given that assessment of his general worldview, I'll tie it back to our
topic. I was trying to blame people confusing RYBS's bedi'eved assessment
of the situation we were living in with his assessment of the best
way to live in that situation. He could say that co-education and more
similar curricula are the ideal for our population while still feeling
that it would be better if we had the opportunity to be a different kind
of population.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

PS: Thanks for the correction on the biographical points. I lived near YCQ;
the world of HILI seemed a million miles away. Maybe had I gone to different
summer camps...

-- 
Micha Berger                 The first step towards getting somewhere is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   to decide that you are not going
Author: Widen Your Tent      to stay where you are.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - JP Morgan



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Message: 7
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 12:11:56 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Tachanun with nefilas apayim when there is no Sefer


From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. I am on vacation and unable to attend a minyan. My custom is to only
recite Tachanun with nefilas apayim when there is a Sefer Torah present. If
there is no Sefer Torah, should I still sit for Tachanun or can I stand?

A. Nefilas apayim means falling on the face, and it demonstrated our
helplessness and total dependency on G-d. When bowing on the ground, it was
necessary to either tilt the face to the side or place a barrier between
the face and the ground, because of the Torah prohibition of bowing on a
stone floor (?even maskis?). With the passing of time, the Rabbis decided
(for various reasons) to no longer bow on the face. Nonetheless, in
recognition of the original practice, it remained customary to bow our
heads towards the ground (Teshuvos Vihanhogos 1:134) and place our head on
a talis, or the sleeve of a shirt or jacket (Mishnah Berurah 131:3). The
name of the Tefillah remained nefilas apayim even though we bow our face
rather than fall on our face.

Shulchan Aruch (OC 131:2) writes that the proper position for nefilas
apayim is to be sitting. The Mishnah Berurah (131:10) cites the Beis Yosef
who writes this is based on Kabbalistic sources. However, the Mishnah
Berurah (131:38) notes that the Rivash disagrees and writes that both
sitting and standing are acceptable for nefilas apayim. The Mishnah Berurah
concludes that in cases of necessity, one may rely on the Rivash and stand.
For example, if a person standing behind you is reciting Shemoneh Esrei and
as such, it is not permissible to sit, Tachanun should be said with nefilas
apayim while standing.

The Elya Rabba (131:4) writes that if one is reciting Tachanun without
nefilas apayim (such as when there is no Sefer Torah), Tachanun may be said
sitting or standing, though the Kaf Hachayim (131:38) is not in agreement.

YL
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Message: 8
From: Joseph Kaplan
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:40:06 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Coeducation


Micha Berger, in further response to me, wrote, in part:
> Sorry, but I am not sure you do. Let me make sure I was clear enough
> that you are disagreeing with what I actually tried to say.

> What I am adding is that I don't think RYBS thought this reality is ideal,
> or even as close to the ideal as the world R' Chaim lived in. I believe
> RYBS felt our reality was not as condusive for living according to the
> Torah than the world our ancestors lived in before Europe started that
> final collapse from around us.

Now that I understand your reading better (partially your fault since
you could have been a bit clearer and partially mine because I should
have been a more careful reader), I'm not sure. That is, I'm not sure
whether the Rav viewed our reality as a lechatchila or a bedieved. Or,
to be more accurate, I'm not sure he thought in those terms. This is the
only reality we'll live in (or he lived in), so I'm not convinced it was
a part of his hashkafa as to whether it would be better if he lived in
the time of Reb Chaim or, perhaps, Maimonides. But I don't think I know
enough to opine about that. I just don't know.

Where I do agree is that the Rav was not Modern Orthodox as many use that
term today. What's interesting, though, is that it's my strong impression
that the Rav wasn't referred to as MO or the father of MO during his prime
and perhaps not even during his lifetime. I'm not sure when exactly that
started but it was late. Indeed, one of the people who were called by
that sobriquet was a bar pelugta of his, R. Emanuel Rackman.

Joseph


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