Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 105

Mon, 07 Dec 2020

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 14:00:59 -0500
Re: [Avodah] local custom

On Thu, Dec 03, 2020 at 02:04:17PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> > To return to RJR's question, it seems from the Shulchan Aruch Harav
> > that "mpnei machloket" is exactly what it sounds like. If everyone is
> > accepting of the differences, then "mpnei machloket" is not a problem
> > (although "lo tisgodedu" might still apply). But if the situation is
> > such that machloket could arise, that's "mpnei machloket".
> Which raises the question does/should this vary by community and time?

I didn't take it that way... I took it as an answer.

"Mipenei machloqes" is all about whether or not people actually do argue
about some split in practice. It's all situational by definition.

Tangentially (maybe):

I suggested in the past that the way Sanhedrin was set up, the same was
true of which topics Sanhedrin pasqened on. Not talking legislation, but

Why was there no resolution for (e.g.) what was the right order for
parashios in tefillin during bayis sheini? We know from archeology
there were at least three different practices, including "Rashi" and
"Rabbeinu Tam" orders. And yet the question is still open in the
days of rishonim!

Well, if an LOR was comfortable with a question, he wouldn't have reffered
the question to the town's beis din. And if the town's beis din was okay,
it wouldn't go up the ladder to the sheivet's beis din. And so on to the
beis din outside the BHMQ up to the Sanhedrin itself.

The second way a question could reach the Sanhedrin is if the question
spanned multiple jurisdictions. Like if two shevatim were involved in a
dispute. Or, if a question about a din requiring a pesaq came from multiple

So, Sanhedrin or the beis din in front of the BHMQ only gave one national
answer if either:
- the question was too complicated for a lower court, or
- the arguing wouldn't stop if there wasn't a single national ruling.

And without an argument, many questions would just continue going with
multiple right answers and regional practices.

Tir'u baTov!

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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 15:51:51 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Publicizing a Chillul Hashem

On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 02:40:05PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> If someone commits a public Chillul Hashem, of course we must protest it to
> the onlookers, to impress upon them how awful and unacceptable such
> behavior is....
> My question concerns the people who DON'T know about the event. Is it a
> chiyuv / mitzva / good idea to inform them about this, so that we can tell
> them how awful it was and that they should not do such things?

I think the case in question more people did than you considered, since
RYL was repeating a news report. But that's tangential...

I want to complicate the question...

Let's say people don't know about the event. But they know about a pattern
that the event seems to fit. E.g. not that Rabbi Y lied to the government
to illegally get money to keep his yeshiva open, but that these things
happen too often. Or not about a given funeral or wedding that was too
crowded and maskless for the middle of a pendemic, but they do know that
there are many such events.

Don't you still need to impress on everyone how awful and "to impress
upon them how awful and unacceptable such behavior is"? And that we
must be on the alert and be vocal in our communities because there are
more cases than they knew of?

> My feeling is that one should NOT tell other people about it, because that
> very act will be a Chillul Hashem itself (or at least akin to Chillul
> Hashem) because this new information will tend to desensitize people about
> such things....

And I was thinking that if in your first case, we cry out to increase
sensitivity, someone hearing about the event with a concurrent "how
horrible!" would be kept sensitive to "such things", the worrying pattern
of which the event in question is but one example.

Also, is the chilul hasheim the telling of the story, or the fact that
there is a true story to tell?

Is motzi sheim ra falsely alleging that something outrageous was done
qualify as a chilul hasheim?

> Are there any sources that anyone can suggest which discuss this question?

Request seconded.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 The greatest discovery of all time is that
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   a person can change their future
Author: Widen Your Tent      by merely changing their attitude.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Oprah Winfrey

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Message: 3
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 14:06:24 +0000
[Avodah] Authentic Judaism

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimon_Schwab
Shimon Schwab - Wikipedia<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimon_Schwab>
Shimon (Simon) Schwab (December 30, 1908 ? February 13, 1995) was an
Orthodox rabbi and communal leader in Germany and the United
States.Educated in Frankfurt am Main and in the yeshivot of Lithuania, he
was rabbi in Ichenhausen, Bavaria, after immigration to the United States
in Baltimore, and from 1958 until his death at Khal Adath Jeshurun in
Washington Heights, Manhattan.
CIS Publications published 3 volumes of Rav Schwab's speeches and writings, namely,  Selected Writings, Selected Speeches, and Selected Essays.

IMO the material in these books should be read by every observant Jew.  Unfortunately,  these books are out of print.

Rav Schwab's essay Authentic Judaism deals with Chanukah appears in Selected Essays which was published in 1994.

It begins with

"Bayamin haham baz'man Ha Zeh." These words describe the neis Chanukah
that occurred years ago, but in truth, there is an ongoing struggle
for authentic Judaism today as well. We are fighting a battle against
contemporary Misyavnim, and a strategy must be formed in order
to win over their misguided victims.

Well, this is a difficult task. As of today, in spite of our optimism,
the American Jewish population numbers over six million,
kein yirbu, and less than seven percent identify themselves as
Orthodox. This translates to less than five hundred thousand Orthodox
Jews in the entire United States. So instead of the
Misyavnim in our midst, we are in the midst of the Misyavnim.
The Misyavnim of today are the contemporary gravediggers of
the tinokos shenishbu bein ha 'akum, innocent Jewish neshamos,
who are victimized by a spiritual holocaust sheain dugmaso. We
should not lose sight of the fact that this spiritual holocaust is not
happening in Russia or under any atheistic dictatorship. It is right
here in the United States, within the framework of a benign democracy
with religious freedom, and it is not imposed upon us by
bordering on anarchy. The once powerful leaders of this accursed
country are now begging for financial handouts from the capitalistic
European and American governments in order to feed their
hungry citizens.

You can read the entire essay at


Authentic Judaism Rav Shimon Schwab Selected Essays 9.pdf<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tqr6kpcXpxWI0OALB8s1NjFS2Jw8xSoB/view>


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Message: 4
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 19:19:09 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Is it permissible to eat while walking outside

Why are we so sure that this Halacha even applies today? This seems to be a
societal thing, in the time of Chazal it was considered disrespectful to
eat outside. However, chazals eating habits were very different then ours.
We no longer eat reclining and we no longer follow many of the other
minhagei seuda of chazal. So if today it?s considered acceptable by society
to eat outside then chazals dictate should not apply. Truthfully, this
opens a different can of worms regarding berachos as well.  For example,
chazal state that a person should put on some kind of bent for davening.
This is the reason chasidim wear a gartel. And yet, the non Hasidic world
has abandoned this practice because our mode of dress has changed and this
is no longer considered a respectful form of dress.
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Message: 5
From: Ari Meir Brodsky
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 12:11:35 +0200
[Avodah] Saturday evening begin Prayer for Rain

Dear Friends,

It's that time of year again, when I know many of you are expecting my
annual friendly reminder....

Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily
prayers, beginning with Maariv this motzei Shabbat (Saturday evening),
December 5, 2020, corresponding to the evening of 20 Kislev, 5781.  The
phrase *??? ?? ???? ?????* "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and
rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday
shemone esrei, from now until Pesach.  [Sephardim replace the entire
blessing of ????? with the alternate text beginning ??? ????? - thanks to
Prof. Lasker for the reminder.]  I encourage everyone to remind friends and
family members of this event, especially those who may not be in shul at
that time.

Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as
approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). This year,
the calculated beginning date falls on Shabbat, so that the request for
rain, which is part of the weekday prayers only, begins after Shabbat.  For
more information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a
fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish
calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we
(Thanks to Russell Levy for suggesting the article.)

In unrelated news:
If you're wondering why Yaakov sent Eisav 220 goats in this week's parasha,
follow this link for an explanation using some number theory:

Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka (which will begin on a Thursday evening
this year, for the first time in 20 years).
Stay healthy!

Dr. Ari M. Brodsky
Lecturer, Mathematics Department
Shamoon College of Engineering
Be'er Sheva, ISRAEL

?"? ???? ???? ???????
????, ?????? ????????
?????? ??????? ?????? ?"? ??? ?????
??? ???
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Message: 6
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 14:36:49 +0000
[Avodah] V?sain Tal Umatar

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

Q. This Motzei Shabbos, December 5th, we begin reciting V?sain Tal Umatar
in the Shmoneh Esrei of Maariv. What happens if one forgot to say V?sain
Tal Umatar and what is the halacha if one is uncertain?

A. If a person said ?v?sain bracha? instead of ?v?sain tal umatar livracha?
and he realized his error after ending Shmoneh Esrei, the entire Shmoneh
Esrei must be repeated.

If the error was caught while in the middle of Shmoneh Esrei, corrective
action may be taken by inserting the phrase of v?sain tal umatar livracha
in the bracha of Shema Koleinu, before the words ?Ki ata shomeiya?.
However, if the bracha of Shema Koleinu was already completed, the
individual must return to the beginning of the bracha of Bareich Aleinu and
use the proper phrase of v?sain tal umatar.

What if a person does not remember if he said v?sain bracha or v?sain tal
umatar? Since he has no recollection, we assume the bracha was recited
without thought, out of habit, in the manner that he was accustomed to
saying it. Halacha assumes that habits of davening are established with
thirty days of repetition. As such, up until thirty days from December 5th,
it can be assumed that the wrong phrase (v?sain bracha) was used, and
Shmoneh Esrei must be repeated. After thirty days have elapsed, when in
doubt, Shmoneh Esrei need not be repeated. It can be assumed that v?sain
tal umatar was said out of habit and second nature.

The Mishna Berura (114:38) qualifies this last halacha and says that if the
person intended to say ?v?sain tal umatar? in Shmoneh Esrei, and later in
the day he cannot remember what he said, he need not repeat Shmoneh Esrei.
This is because it can be assumed that he recited the bracha properly,
since that was his intent. The fact that he cannot remember is
inconsequential because people do not typically remember such details after
a significant amount of time has passed. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l
(Shmiras Shabbos Kehilchoso 57:17) notes that each person?s memory span is
different. For someone whose memory is poor, the last halacha would apply
even if one cannot remember soon after reciting Shemoneh Esrei.

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Message: 7
From: Sholom Simon
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 10:13:25 -0500
[Avodah] simple daf yomi question

Daf yomi has entered the famous "Sugya of R Chanina S'gan HaKohamim".
(Tangent: I've been told it's famous for it's difficulty, although in my
limited learning, I'd never heard of it before).  Indeed, it seems to be
it'd be pretty hard to understand without an artscroll or a maggid shiur
helping one along (I have both).

In any event, over shabbos I was discussing the broad issues of the sugya
with my wife -- namely, that we're talking about whether, on eruv Pesach,
one can burn terumah chometz with tamei chometz.

She asked (my limited understanding is that the stereotype for women
vis-a-vis learning is that they tend to ask very practical questions -- if
so, this fits the stereotype to a "T"): why *would* someone have terumah
around that they need to burn for Pesach?  Does this entire issue --
speaking practically -- only apply to kohanim?  (Unless we're talking about
a case where you're average Yankel the farmer separated terumah but didn't
give it over to his local kohain yet -- but that didn't sound right.
Should Yankel be burning designated terumah?  But that's a tangent).

So -- thoughts, anyone?  Is this case (on a practical level) speaking only
of a kohain that has terumah chometz lying around the house right before

(Yes, I realize, and thus goes without saying, that on a theoretical level
this raises a gazillion interesting issues from which we learn all kinds of
things -- but I'm just focusing on the metzius here).

-- Sholom
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