Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 79

Sun, 27 Sep 2020

• 1. Re: What Will be with Simchas Torah? (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Medicine on Yom Kippur (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. Re: What Will be with Simchas Torah? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: What Will be with Simchas Torah? (Chana Luntz)
• 5. Re: What Will be with Simchas Torah? (Zev Sero)
• 6. What foods should one eat at the seuda ha?mafsekes (last meal) on erev Yom Kippur? (Prof. L. Levine)

.
Several posters referenced the Rama, which R"n Chana Luntz translated as:

> The last day of Yom Tov is called Simchat Torah because they
> rejoice and make on it a festive meal for the completion of
> the Torah

Is this "completion of the Torah" necessarily referring to the public
laining in shul each Shabbos morning? Can it possibly refer just as well to
our private learning of the parshios, such as those who learned the parsha
each week by reading it themselves from a chumash while the shuls were
closed?

Granted that such learning was not an actual chiyuv, but by taking the time
and effort to actually mouth every single word myself (rather than just
listen to the kriah and let my mind dwell on this pasuk and that pasuk), I
feel that my learning of Chumash this year was considerably better than in
years past, and I'll have no problem celebrating that, to whatever extent
our rav allows.

Akiva Miller
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From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. May a person who is ill, but is not in mortal danger (choleh she?ein bo sakana) consume unsweetened medicine on Yom Kippur?

A. This is the subject of a dispute between the Acharonim. According to
Shaagas Aryeh (75-76), one is not permitted to take medicine on Yom Kippur.
Even though medicine is not a ?food?, and the prohibition to consume
medicine is Rabbinic in nature ? which is normally waived for people who
are ill, nonetheless, by swallowing the pill , the individual demonstrates
that he or she considers it as food, and it is therefore forbidden on Yom
Kippur. K?sav Sofer (OC 111) strongly disagrees and maintains that
consuming medicine when ill does not demonstrate that it is a food item,
and therefore medicine may be swallowed on Yom Kippur. Igros Moshe (OC
111:91) concurs with this ruling as well.

If a person must drink water to swallow a pill, contemporary poskim
recommend adding a bitter substance to water, such as a significant amount
of lemon juice or vinegar, so that the water has a very unpleasant taste.
This was the opinion of Rav Ben Tzion Abba Shaul, (Ohr L?Tziyon, IV 15:8),
Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv (Ashrei Ha?Ish III 23:230) and Rav Nissim
Karelitz (Chut HaShani, Yom Kippur p. 145).

If the pill is sweet, it is considered to be a food independently of its
medicinal properties. In such instances, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach advised
that the pill should be wrapped in a tissue and swallowed in that manner
(Shemira Shabbos KeHilchasa 39:8; Halichos Shlomo, Yom HaKippurim 5:8).

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On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 11:25:17PM +0100, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
>> The hagah opens, as you translate, that the simchah is that of completing
>> the Torah. ("... [L]efi shesemaichin ve'osin bo se'udas mishteh *legamrah
>> shel torah* venohagim...")

> Sorry, but I disagree, the language of the Rema is:
...
> Which I translated as: "The last day of Yom Tov is called Simchat Torah
> because they rejoice and make on it a festive meal for the completion of the
> Torah"

> That is, the *name* Simchas Torah, which we do not find in the gemora, is
> because of the custom of making of completing the Torah....

Because "shesimeichin ve'osin bo se'udas mishteh legamrah shel Torah".
The simchah and making the mishteh are for the completion of the Torah.
And thus the name of the holiday reflects that simchah.

...
> Yes, and mishum simcha is because of the halachic obligation to have simcha
> on yom tov acharon shel chag.

But the Rama doesn't say simchas YT, just "mishum simchah". OTOH, as we
saw, the Rama opens by speaking of the simchah and mishteh of completing
the Torah. So, if he just says "simchah" afterwards, why would I think
it is anything but the "semeichin ... legamra shel Torah" already brought
into the discussion?

You're assuming the Rama changes topics without telling us.

(Of course, I didn't think any of this out before my first post. I
just read the sources, not thinking about other possibilities until it
became a discussion. But I can't say that you convinced me yet that I
brought too many unconscious assumptions to the table, that your read
is comparably viable.)



On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 06:12:16AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Is this "completion of the Torah" necessarily referring to the public
> laining in shul each Shabbos morning? Can it possibly refer just as well to
> our private learning of the parshios...

It refers to the completion that occured that morning, which was indeed
leining.

The AhS ad loc says the party is traditionally paid for with pledges
by the Chasanim. Not, as I see done today, that the qiddush the next
two Shabbosos are.

> Granted that such learning was not an actual chiyuv...

A siyum is a siyum. People make a siyum on a mesechtes gemara that they
had no particular chiyuv to learn over learning something else.

I just don't think we were mesaymim what the minhagim were established
to celebrate.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You will never "find" time for anything.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   If you want time, you must make it.
Author: Widen Your Tent                        - Charles Buxton
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

I wrote:

> Yes, and mishum simcha is because of the halachic obligation to have 
> simcha on yom tov acharon shel chag.

And RMB replied:

<<But the Rama doesn't say simchas YT, just "mishum simchah". OTOH, as we
saw, the Rama opens by speaking of the simchah and mishteh of completing the
Torah. So, if he just says "simchah" afterwards, why would I think it is
anything but the "semeichin ... legamra shel Torah" already brought into the
discussion?>>

I suppose the reason it seems to me obvious that mishum simcha, means the
simcha of Yom Tov, is because:

a) when the poskim say something is meshum simcha in the context of yom tov,
they mean the mitzvah of simcha  - for example: the Levush and the Bach (and
numerous others, I believe) hold that the hakafos of the lulav during sukkos
is mishum simcha  (or at least the hakafos in the Beis HaMikdash, come
directly out of the pasuk mandating simcha, and we then do them as a zecher.
In that context, various rishonim and achronim discuss whether an avel is
permitted to do hakafos, ie whether the simcha of the day pushes of the fact
that a avel is forbidden from simcha.  And in all these discussions, when
they talk about simcha or mishum simcha, simchas Yom Tov is understood. 

b) I have not seen (and don't expect to see) a distinction made between an
avel doing hakafos with the lulav, and an avel doing hakafos on simchas
Torah.  But if they have completely different bases, then that discussion
would need to be had.

c) On the other hand, the obligation to have a seudas mitzvah on finishing
learning comes from a statement in gemora shabbas (118b-119a) where Abaye
says: he should be rewarded because whenever he heard about a tzurba
d'rabanan finishing a mesechta, he would make a yom tov for the Rabbis,
which is understood to mean a seudas mitzvah.  This is listed as part of a
whole list of various Amoraim stating what it is that they believe they
should get a special reward for, including being careful in known mitzvos
(such a tefillin and tzitzis, and three meals on shabbas) and what are
identified as good minhagim (such as not going daled amos with his head
uncovered).  It is really not clear into which category Abaye's statement
falls.  And while the Rema in Yore Deah siman 246, si'if 26  does say that "
when one finishes a mesechet it is a mitzvah to rejoice and to make a feast,
and it is called a seudas mitzvah" - to hang everything we do on Simchas
Torah on this one statement in the gemora seems like a breathtaking
chiddush.  And think about it this way.  If I were to finish a mesechta,
here today, does that mean I can take the sifrei Torah out of the aron,
dance around with them, call up some children (and some people together at
once, making the brachos at once), read multiple times, take the sifrei
Torah out into the street, (and, if it was shabbas, dance even if in general
I held that dancing on shabbas is not permitted, as per the Shulchan
Aruch?). Given that the essential siyum that is described in the gemora and
referred to  by the Rema is on a mesechet in Shas, then all this should be
permissible on any day of the week, not just Simchas Torah. Because mai
nafka minah. 

So I suppose it seems to me obvious that all the heterim the Rema refers to
cannot be because of the simcha of the siyum, especially as the heterim were
in place before the siyum was necessarily happening, historically, which
again seems to suggest that the one does not cause the other.

I do see that in fact the Aruch HaShulchan seems to support you, as in Orech
Chaim siman 669 si'if 2 he says in the middle of the piece:  "And also we
are accustomed that two are called up together and bless, and even though it
is not correct in any event because of the joy of the siyum they do so ." -
whereas I would have thought he should say the joy of Yom Tov.  So the Aruch
HaShulchan would seem to be supporting your position.

But still, I cannot see, if the Aruch HaShulchan is saying this, how he can
be correct, because the consequences must surely be that any time there is a
siyum, such a heter would then be permissible, or at least tolerable.  I
just can't see how this is right.  I cannot see how, even if the whole of
klal yisrael this year decided that we were going to have a siyum on kriyas
hatorah when we had had a full year since last lockdown (ie assuming a
vaccine became widely available and was effective), somewhere in the middle
of the year, it would it be mutar as part of holding that siyum on krias
haTorah on an ordinary Shabbat, to have the usual Simchas Torah heterim.
According to you it would be, but I cannot see that this can be right, and I
struggle to believe the Rema would authorise it were he here today.  

<<You're assuming the Rama changes topics without telling us.>>

Not really.  Given that mishum simcha in the context of a Yom Tov is
logically understood to mean simchas yom tov, without the modifier, the Rema
is just explaining in greater detail why we do everything we do before.
That *includes* holding the completion of the krias hatorah cycle on Simchas
Torah.  ie we arrange to have the siyum on Simchas Torah, *because* of the
nature of Simchas Torah, not that Simchas Torah is the way it is because of
the siyum of finishing the reading cycle.

-Micha

Gmar Tov

Chana

On 23/9/20 6:37 pm, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
> b) I have not seen (and don't expect to see) a distinction made between an
> avel doing hakafos with the lulav, and an avel doing hakafos on simchas
> Torah.  But if they have completely different bases, then that discussion
> would need to be had.

Last year, when I was an avel, I was told that for Hoshanos I should not 
go around at all, and should lend my arba minim to someone else who 
hasn't got them, and have him go around in my place. (Or at least that's 
how I understood it; it may be that lending the arba minim was simply a 
suggestion to do someone a chesed, since I wasn't using them.)  For 
Simchas Torah I was told that I could go around with the group, but 
should not hold a sefer torah while doing so; after the hakafa I could 
take a sefer and dance with it.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

Please see

https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/foods-one-eat-seuda-hamafsekes-last-meal-erev-yom-kippur/?category=yom-kippur&;utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=shsh%20Haazinu%205781%20%281%29&utm_content=&spMailingID=32573763&spUserID=MjM3MTAxNzY3NzIS1&spJobID=1784317155&spReportId=MTc4NDMxNzE1NQS2
What foods should one eat at the <em>seuda ha?mafsekes</em>
(last meal) on <em>erev Yom Kippur</em>? | OU Kosher
Certification<https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/foods-one-eat-seuda-hamafsekes-last-meal-erev-yom-kippur/?category=yom-kippur&;utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=shsh%20Haazinu%205781%20%281%29&utm_content=&spMailingID=32573763&spUserID=MjM3MTAxNzY3NzIS1&spJobID=1784317155&spReportId=MTc4NDMxNzE1NQS2>
Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 608:4) writes that on erev Yom Kippur, one
should eat light foods that are easily digestible, so one will be able to
daven on Yom Kippur with proper concentration. There is a common custom to
dip challah in honey. Mishnah...
oukosher.org

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