Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 29

Mon, 27 Apr 2020

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:48:23 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] How To Religiously Respond to the Pandemic


In a thread brought over from Areivim titled "Report: Orthodox Weddings
to Resume with 'Approved Model' in New Jersey: Rabbi Aaron Kotler",
on Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:35pm +0100, Rt Chana Luntz wrote:
> I confess that one of the most powerful religious responses I have seen is
> the piece in the link below by R' Gideon Rothstein - or at least the section
> about nidui (not so much to my mind his attempted answers as to why G-d
> might have put us into nidui, but the halachic description itself, including
> the reference to being menudeh la-Shamayim):
> https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/04/the-best-way-out-of-nidui/
...

A co worker commented today (given the parashah) about Tzora'as and the
need for social distancing. One can draw a similar comparison, but with
tzora'as there is a complication. Tzora'as has a well-known cause, as well
as 6 other things less often discussed. (All given by R Shemu'el b Nachmani,
Eirukhin 16a.) But I wouldn't hazard associating our current tzarah with
something that suggests a cause.

And this opens the door to having a conversation about how to respond
to the CoVID-19 epidemic. I am going to share a blog post of mine, and
then in the next post, an article by R Avraham Gordimer.

    Aspaqlaria
    How To Religiously Respond to the Pandemic
    by micha
    Published Sun, Apr 5, 2020   Updated Thu, Apr 2, 2020

    So many others wrote about THE correct way to respond to the CoVID-19
    pandemic, how could someone like myself -- Micha Shmuel -- named
    for not one but TWO nevi'im not join the fray with my opinion?

    I think that identifying causality of the kind so many suggest,
    "Hashem brought this because ..." is impossible for us. Read Hashem's
    words at the end of Iyov. It's beyond us to figure it out, and the
    hubris of trying angers Him. Never mind thinking we succeeded. Look
    at the opening snippet (38:1-5 <https://www.sefaria.org/Job.38.1-5>):

        Then Hashem replied to Iyov from the tempest and said: Who is
        this who darkens counsel, Speaking without knowledge? Gird your
        loins like a man; I will ask and you will inform Me. Where
        were you when I laid the earth's foundations? Speak if you
        have understanding. Do you know who fixed its dimensions Or who
        measured its diameter? ...

    Chazal presumed we had a firm grounding in Tanakh before moving on
    to their works. So, it is safe to assume that where it looks like
    they are violating the thesis of a book of Tanakh, they're not.

    So, I take Chazal (and the Rambam) as demanding we take lessons from
    what happens to us. Whether or not we find THE cause. What did the
    pandemic and current lifestyle bring up for you? The thing you are
    already motivated about is the ideal thing to be working on.

    For R Aharon Lopiansky (watch here
    <http://torahweb.org/audio/rlop_032920_video.html>), and he assumes
    this is quite common / typical, the thing that has us all in a tizzy
    is the fact that the news changes faster than we can get a handle on
    it. We feel out of control, and we are in a society that has gotten
    used to successfully engineering control -- from tech to getting
    insurance to cap our loses.

    An idolater goes and gets himself a god he can appease. It gives him
    control. But Hashem's presence is always within a cloud. We don't
    know what's going on. We need bitachon to manage, because we are
    not in control.

    And therefore, RAL suggests, this need for find a segulah to make
    everything all better is itself the exact opposite of the experience
    should be teaching us.

    As for my own experience, one of the things the whole situation
    drove home was how one person infects two or three, and they, 6 or
    7... So to me the realization of social interaction, rechilus, or
    just plain spreading negativity, was driven home more than feelings
    of loss of control. (And there is a project doing that, as well:
    Stop the Spread. <https://www.stopthespread.com/>)

    But whatever it is you are naturally moved by in all this, and
    if nothing comes on its own, what you hear that resonated. Those
    responsible for their community's spirituality (typically a rav,
    rosh yeshiva, rebbe or for one definition of "community", a parent)
    should view their need to provide guidance in those terms -- in my
    humble opinion.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 14th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   2 weeks in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Malchus sheb'Gevurah: How does judgment reveal
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                          G-d?



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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:52:36 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] How To Religiously Respond to the Pandemic


And now the article from Yated Neeman by R' Avrohom Gordimer
<https://yated.com/reacting-to-the-coronavirus-mageifoh>:

    Yated.com
    Reacting to the Coronavirus Mageifoh
    By Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer
    Apr 22, 2020

    The coronavirus pandemic has tested us in ways we never could have
    imagined. We search for explanations, for what COVID-19's divine
    message might be, and how this extremely trying situation fits into
    Hashem's grand scheme of things--all while hunkered down, locked out of
    our yeshivos and shuls, and tearfully davening for the countless cholim
    and agonizing over the numerous petiros, r"l.

    How are we to digest this all? It seems overwhelming and confusing, and
    the quick solutions so often seem to not be the dvar Hashem, lacking
    emes. But as frum Jews, let us go to the mekoros and try to properly
    orient ourselves and establish an authentic Torah perspective.

    The Rambam writes in Hilchos Ta'aniyos (1:1-3):

    It is a mitzvas aseh in the Torah to cry out and sound the chatzotzros
    on every tzoroh that comes upon the tzibbur... And this is from the
    ways of teshuvah--that when a tzoroh comes and people cry out and sound
    [the chatzotzros], everyone will know that it is due to their negative
    actions that evil has befallen them...

    And this will help cause the tzoroh to be removed from upon them. But
    if the people do not cry out and sound [the chatzotzros], but they
    instead say, "It is merely part of how the world operates that this has
    come upon us, and it just happened by chance," this is the way of
    cruelty, and will cause the people to retain their evil ways, and
    additional tzaros will therefore come...

    Interestingly, the Rambam does not state that the tzoroh must have
    resulted from a singular aveiroh which needs to be called out; the
    Rambam instead refers to "negative actions," a plurality of "ma'aseihem
    horo'im" and not a "maaseh ro."

    What emerges is that there might not be a uniform cause for a mageifoh;
    rather, each individual must engage in teshuvah and introspection, and
    determine what he needs to correct in his own life. The idea of
    pointing to a singular aveiroh of which everyone is guilty is absent
    from the words of the Rambam, and short of a novi or a person blessed
    with ruach hakodesh, who can make such a declaration? There might be a
    multitude of various wrongdoings that brought about the crisis.

    We must also keep in mind that Hashem can bring yissurin shel ahavoh
    upon total tzaddikim (Berachos 5a), who are free of aveiros. And let us
    not forget how Hashem condemned Iyov's friends for suggesting that his
    suffering was due to transgression on his part. These concepts
    reinforce the idea that it is not the job of people to point to their
    peers' afflictions as punishments for their actions; each person must
    evaluate his own deeds and determine for which acts he needs to do
    teshuvah.

    How different is this from the words of modern-day, unlearned
    pontificators, who seek quick, one-size-fits-all reasons for
    calamities, thereby leaving a trail of confusion in their path, as
    people listen incredulously and often walk away with mistrust and
    cynicism.

    There is also the popular (and well-intentioned) tendency to attribute
    calamities to bi'as haMoshiach. Halevai that we are in the time of
    Moshiach--it cannot come soon enough--but the Rambam (Hilchos Melochim
    12:2) clearly cautions us not to engage in predictions about the coming
    of Moshiach or even to try to figure out how the Messianic era will
    unfold. Not only does intense focus on this not engender yiras shomayim
    or ahavas Hashem, as the Rambam writes, but it also results in mass
    disillusionment and worse when the suggested interpretations and
    predictions turn out to be wrong--we have witnessed this throughout
    Jewish history.

    (And let us not forget the words of Rav Shach, who equated people's
    attributing the Yom Kippur War to the onset of bi'as haMoshiach as a
    manifestation of the middoh of Amalek, by such people ascribing
    suffering to outside forces rather than taking a look at our own
    deeds.)

    Contemporary prognosticators, who would have us believe that every
    single unusual event, including the outbreak of COVID-19, signals that
    Moshiach is here, are doing a colossal disservice to klal Yisroel and
    would be wise to follow the words of the Rambam and be mindful of the
    exhortation of Rav Shach. Hashem will let us know when Moshiach is
    here, and we daven that it will be as soon as possible--but until that
    point, let us focus on our avodah, and examine and correct our paths as
    needed.

    The devastating phenomenon of COVID-19 gives rise to some additional
    thoughts:

    The "Derech Hateva" Illusion

    The massive tragedy that is coronavirus has humbled us. When COVID-19
    first reached these shores, some people confidently advised young
    people to disregard it, because in China, the disease primarily
    impacted the elderly. Derech hateva was the name of the game--we can
    outsmart the mageifoh, as it is part of nature, which we can predict
    and try to control. (As NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo declared, "We control the
    virus. The virus doesn't control us.") We then shockingly witnessed the
    mageifoh ferociously fell many young, healthy people, including
    outstanding bnei Torah and leaders of our kehillos and mosdos. We dare
    not play the derech hateva card and forsake the derech Hashem.

    Teva has a role, of course. Hakodosh Boruch Hu set up fixed, perpetual
    systems and mechanisms upon which we must rely--but when we deal with a
    mageifoh as if it is something we can self-assuredly outmaneuver as a
    facet of teva, rather than as a divinely-decreed phenomenon and
    aberration in the natural order, we are sorely mistaken and are going
    the way of the secularists.

    Proper Use of Time--A Most Precious Gift!

    Although my "day job" (which often occupies me late into the night, as
    is the case with many people) has kept me incredibly busy during the
    coronavirus lockdown, many people now find themselves with loads of
    excess time on their hands. Some individuals have used the time to
    stare at the walls, at their screens, at their bottles of liquor, which
    they then liberally enjoy... while some have spent this "extra" time
    productively, learning Torah and helping others.

    For those who have little constructive to do, aimlessly drudging
    through the day, time is an enemy that needs to be killed--"killing
    time." For those who use their time well, it is a precious gift from
    Hashem that dare not be wasted or squandered; for such people, there is
    not enough time in the day, even during the lockdown, to squeeze in all
    the good that one can accomplish. The current coronavirus quarantine
    has made this realization glaringly acute and has frontally challenged
    us to evaluate how we use and value our time.

    Appreciating the "Normal"

    How often do we complain about our routines--the commute to work, the
    quality of the restaurants we frequent, and our various social
    obligations and errands to run. But now, if only we could do these
    things! We take our routines for granted, but now that we are frozen in
    place, we long for the ability to go out for a slice of pizza--even at
    a less-preferable eatery--or to be able to host company at our Shabbos
    and Yom Tov tables... and more.

    The very fact that we can walk, breathe, learn Torah, perform mitzvos,
    and just be alive should instill us with immense appreciation to
    Hashem, especially as we agonize over those who have perished. Let us
    ever gratefully thank Hashem for the mere "basics," never take anything
    for granted, and realize that there are so many people who do not have
    these things, even without the COVID-19 situation.

    Davening

    As much as we long to enter our botei medrash and shuls, saddened as
    these holy edifices sit empty and dormant, we have at last been forced
    to come to terms with our own davening. We can no longer mindlessly
    rush through the words, justifying it as necessary to keep up with the
    minyan/get out in time for work/whatever else; we now stand before
    Hashem, with nowhere else to go, no tzibbur to regulate our pace, and
    no one crowding into the seats next to us, which might disturb our
    kavonoh.

    We are in the literal presence of the Ultimate King, the Creator and
    Controller, with our siddur open and all the time in the world to daven
    properly and beseech our benevolent and loving Father and Boss. This is
    an opportunity and a test, which demonstrates whether our davening is
    for real, or is an empty act. Let us make sure it is the former!

    Fidelity to Halacha

    Although I do not have the time to follow them closely, I am a member
    of email and text groups of rabbonim who are sharing and answering
    unique shailos that arise under the very trying circumstances of the
    coronavirus pandemic: how to do taharah and kevurah for niftorim,
    kashrus guidelines for people who could not access certain foods for
    Pesach, how to operate mikvaos and perform brissim under severe
    limitations, shailos about cholim and elderly people who were alone for
    Yom Tov, etc. For each shailah, a cogent teshuvah was presented by
    poskim, who upheld halachic standards and dispensed only with things
    that are not essential, due to the exigencies. This is the derech of
    psak in sha'as hadchak, as is the case now.

    In contrast, some maverick left-wing and Open Orthodox clergy have used
    the COVID-19 crisis as justification to further depart from halacha.
    For example, one Open Orthodox leader advertised that he would this
    year turn electricity on and off during Yom Tov Sheni of Pesach, and he
    suggested that others do the same. One left-wing Israeli rabbi
    advocated the use of bathtubs instead of mikvaos, another such rabbi
    supported performing cremation instead of burial, calling cremation "a
    mitzvah," and others advocated for conducting "Zoom Sedarim"--live
    video-streaming of one's Sedorim and inviting relatives to tune in to
    these Sedarim on their computer on Pesach (!).

    This is all totally against halacha--some of these rabbis later said
    that they were misunderstood or misquoted--but the fact remains that
    these very problematic "psakim" went public and in many cases were
    actually followed. In challenging times, one can rise to the occasion
    and be moser nefesh for Torah, or he can show his true colors. The
    current situation has confirmed this axiom.

    "Out-of-Touch" People

    We all know ehrliche Yidden who are out of touch with what is
    happening, both regarding the frum velt and the world in general.
    Although one should not be addicted to the news, and it is meritorious
    to be a poreish--insulating oneself from the frivolities of the times
    and avoiding that which is not necessary--we are speaking about people
    who do not stay current with essential developments and could be
    described as living in a bubble.

    These individuals might not open their mail/read their emails in a
    timely manner, not look at important notices posted in shul, not stay
    abreast of current events, be unaware of basic communal happenings and
    obligations, and be unaware of recent simchos (or chas v'sholom, the
    opposite) in their neighborhoods. We all know such people, and we often
    notify them of these very basic things, so that they are at least
    minimally informed and able to navigate through life and society.

    The COVID-19 outbreak should serve as a warning signal to
    "out-of-touch" people, who in some cases had no idea of the dangers of
    close mingling with others and were oblivious to the restrictions that
    were promulgated by the rabbonim and the government--important basics
    that were broadcast everywhere. The coronavirus should likewise inspire
    the rest of us to do our best to persuade our brethren who are detached
    and disconnected from the norm to change their ways for their own
    wellbeing, in a literal sense. This is yet another unexpected lesson
    learned from the current circumstances.

    Becoming Baalei Achrayus

    There are many grown people--some of whom are grandparents, or are at
    least old enough to be--yet they have never really prepared for Pesach,
    leaving it up to their parents (or hotels), who host them for the
    entire Yom Tov. Bedikas Chometz, kashering a kitchen and running a
    Seder are almost foreign concepts to these people. This year,
    everything changed, as our brethren of all ages prepared their homes
    for Pesach and conducted their own Sedarim. Despite the negative
    circumstances during which this occurred, it compelled people to take
    achrayus and lead, and it is something to seriously think about.

    Empathy

    We are often asked to daven for cholim; they are frequently people we
    do not know, and can become mere "names," with little personal
    connection or significance. During the coronavirus outbreak, just about
    every single one of us knew individuals who were in the throes of death
    or who were niftar. It really hit home--we davened fervently for so
    many cholim to whom we were close, and personally experienced their
    suffering.

    Let us move forward and continue to empathize with each person for whom
    we daven, cry for their suffering and, with Hashem's help, be able to
    rejoice in their recovery. We must become people of personal empathy
    and authentic, heartfelt concern for every single member of Acheinu
    Beis Yisroel.

    We daven to Hakodosh Boruch Hu for rachamim, refuos, yeshuos and
    besoros tovos, and that we properly learn the lessons of this very
    difficult period in our lives.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 14th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   2 weeks in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Malchus sheb'Gevurah: How does judgment reveal
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                          G-d?



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Message: 3
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 16:15:46 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] ukimtas


>
>
> Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:19:06 -0400  Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
> wrote:To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <
>


> > When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara (e.g. the gemara really was
> > dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often
> > were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic?
>
> I'm going to cut-n-past RETurkel's post from 28-Feb-2017, "ukimtahs":
> The rest of the thread is titled "Farfetched Ukimtas" and is available
> at http://aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=F#FARFETCHED%20UKIMTAS
>

Looking back at that thread, I was thinking over R. Marty Bluke's final
example:

*Message:* 13
> *From:* Marty Bluke
> *Date:* Sun, 6 May 2018 11:53:37 +0300
> *Subject:* Re: [Avodah] Farfetched Ukimtas
> <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=F#FARFETCHED%20UKIMTAS>
>
> Yesterday's daf (Zevachim 22) has another wild ukimta that seems to just be
> there to answer a question on an amora and not provide a sterile
> environment to learn out a new principle.
>
> Here is the gist of the Gemara:
>
> R. Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina states if the Kiyor does not contain enough water
> to be Mekadesh four Kohanim, it is invalid - "v'Rachatzu Mimenu Moshe
> v'Aharon u'Vanav."
>
> The Gemara asks a question from the following Baraisa: One may be Mekadesh
> from any Keli Shares, whether or not it contains a Revi'is of water (this
> is much less then the water needed for 4 people)
>
> Rav Ada bar Acha answers: The case is, the Keli Shares was carved into the
> Kiyor (so the water comes from the Kiyor, which contains enough water to be
> Mekadesh four Kohanim).
>
> I don't see any way that you can say here that the ukimta is to remove
> extraneous dinim etc. The ukimta here seems to serve one and only one
> purpose, explain the Barisa that it is not a question on an Amora.
>
> My first observation is that Tosefos' description of the ukimta translates
kodeiach not ''carved'' into Kiyor, but ''submerged'' into it. Meaning, the
we are speaking of a case where one dips a keli shareis into the Kiyor, and
washes from it. Although the kli shareis has a minimal amount of water,
since that water came from the Kiyor, which had the necessary amount, it is
valid for washing. This ukimta is therefore not at all wild. Of course,
this translation of kodeiach is unusual.

But the ukimta may not really be wild even according to Rashi, who takes it
that the kli shareis was literally carved into the Kiyor. Perhaps this was
really the way the Kinor was made, with small klei shareis attached to it,
and Rav Ada bar Acha is calling attention to the fact, oi at least
suggesting that such was the fact.

We really need to know how things were done, and how those doings were
described, to judge if the suggested scenario is normal or not.

I'm not really in the sugya, so be on the watchout that a thorough
understanding of the subject matter demolishes my suggestions.

Zvi Lampel
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Message: 4
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 15:44:17 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Modern Shabbos Urns


.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> (PS: As a warning... If there is a power failure when in Shabbos
> or Y"T modes, it will not go back on.)

I figured this might be a good reason to simply use the weekday mode all
the time. So I conducted a simple experiment. After filling it and getting
the water hot, I unplugged it, waited 10-15 seconds, and plugged it back in.

I got the same results in all three modes: It stays off, even in weekday
mode. Apparently, even though a plain "dumb urn" will come back on when the
power is restored, the circuitry of a "smart urn" gets reset during a power
failure regardless of what setting it had been set to.

At least, that's why happened to *my* urn. YMMV.

Akiva Miller
.
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Message: 5
From: Ben Bradley
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 21:43:32 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] levels/gates of tuma?


'R Yaakov Haber (Ramat Bet Shemesh) notes that sha'ar doesn't mean level
and therefore "everyone" misunderstands the medrash by not just taking
it at face value.

RYH notes that this explains why the omer is ony 49 days to get from the
49 sha'arei tum'ah to 49 sha'arei qedushah and Matan Torah. If these were
indeed levels, then getting from -49 to +49 would require 98 or 99 days
(depending on whether there is a level 0).'


At the risk of being too baale batische perhaps a simpler explanation would
suffice for this question. Kedusha is not the opposite of tuma, tahara is. 
Tumah comes in different types - tumas meis, tumas metzora, tumas nida etc
etc, and different levels - avi avos hatuma down to revi'i l'tuma for mei
chatas. Tahara has no levels. You're either tahor or you're not, because
tahara means absence of tuma, being back at the natural born state.
OTOH Kedusha and tuma can exist simultaneously eg a shechted kodshim animal can become tamei, but it stays kadosh.

Ok, midrabanon there's such thing as al taharas chulin, al taharas hakodesh, but that's a technical issue in tevila, not essential to tahara.

To put it another way Tahara is a prerequisite for becoming kadosh. Viz. tevilas nashim as a good example.
The earliest references I've seen don't say that bnei yisrael had to get to
the 49th gate/level of kedusha (although maybe the Ari says otherwise?)
They had to be at a state they could receive the Torah. Being rid of the
tuma and thereby being tahor may have been the aim. The Torah then made
then kadosh.
So 49 days of removing tuma would have been sufficient.
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Message: 6
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 13:37:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] ukimtas


On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 4:15 PM Zvi Lampel <zvilam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:19:06 -0400  Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
>> wrote:
>>> When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara (e.g. the gemara really was
>>> dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often
>>> were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic?

>> I'm going to cut-n-past RETurkel's post from 28-Feb-2017, "ukimtahs":
>> The rest of the thread is titled "Farfetched Ukimtas" and is available
>> at http://aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=F#FARFETCHED%20UKIMTAS

My response defending the plausibility of a given ukimta did not really
address the question asked. The question is phrased assuming that
sometimes an ukimta is
A. a preserved fact, and sometimes it is
B. a creative attempt to keep the text in question in line with other
known facts. (And I agree with that assumption.)
The question was, how often was it A and how often was it B?

I don't think anyone answered that question, yet, and I cannot, either.

However, I would like to make another observation.

In principle, it is quite possible that an Amora, in defending his
position, is actually asserting something that is dochuk, not squaring
well with the language of the text to which he is trying to conform
another statement. And if the poskim consider that text a determining
factor for the halacha, and the Amora's response to be dochuk, they may
on that basis reject that Amora's position.

I learned this from a wonderful sefer, HaRamabm L-lo Setiah min haTalmud,
by R. Binyamin Zev Benedict (Mossad HaRav Kook, 1985) p. 16), which
brilliantly presents this as one of several explanations for where the
Rambam seems to posken against the "maskana" of the Gemora. He quotes from
the Teshuvos HaGeonim Harkavi, Berlin, 1887, https://hebrewbooks.org/21195
Teshuvah 157, attributed to the Rif.

This principle is factored into his pesakim, among other factors (such as
that elsewhere the sugya is presented assuming one of two shittos) and even
trumps the fact that, as the Gemora reads, the answer is given as the last
word.

I previously though that the halacha should follow Rav Huna, and not Rav
Chisda, since he was the mentor of Rav Chisda. But this was only until I
examined the Gemara with my seichel, and I found that the true examination
makes this remote....Even though normally the halacha follows the mentor
when disputed by the student, here the halacha should follow Rav Chisda,
the student....for Rav Huna's answer to the challenge brought against
him is a sheenuya udechusa b-alma, a farfetched one.

Zvi Lampel



Go to top.

Message: 7
From: Chana Luntz
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 20:13:40 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Report: Orthodox Weddings to Resume with


RMB writes:

  <<  I think that identifying causality of the kind so many suggest,
    "Hashem brought this because ..." is impossible for us. Read Hashem's
    words at the end of Iyov. It's beyond us to figure it out, and the
    hubris of trying angers Him. Never mind thinking we succeeded.>>

I agree.  And in addition, as I said in my comment on R' Rothstein's piece,
there is a strong tendency to point the finger at others as being the cause
(the "women wearing sheitals" or the  "woman gave me the apple" type logic).

<<    So, I take Chazal (and the Rambam) as demanding we take lessons from
    what happens to us. Whether or not we find THE cause. What did the
    pandemic and current lifestyle bring up for you?>>

That also makes sense to me.

<< The thing you are
    already motivated about is the ideal thing to be working on.>>

I wonder about that though.  A plague seems a bit extreme as something
merely to give you a push along the lines that you were already working. 

  <<  For R Aharon Lopiansky (watch here
    <http://torahweb.org/audio/rlop_032920_video.html>), and he assumes
    this is quite common / typical, the thing that has us all in a tizzy
    is the fact that the news changes faster than we can get a handle on
    it. We feel out of control, and we are in a society that has gotten
    used to successfully engineering control -- from tech to getting
    insurance to cap our loses.>>

Rabbi Reuven Leuchter says something similar -
https://iyun.org.il/en/article/coronavirus-the-charedi-response/covid-19-a-v
iew-from-above/,  but not quite the same, I think.

" In this, too, we find a correlation between the physical and the spiritual
aspects of a plague. On the physical level, the fear of plague-certainly
that we are currently facing-is not necessarily a fear of personal infection
and illness. Some, the young and the fit, do not see COVID-19 as a personal
threat (justifiably or otherwise). The fear, rather, is of spread, of an
indiscriminate contamination that will bring the world to a standstill.
Divine supervision reveals something beyond those regular orders that govern
human activity; it demonstrates that notwithstanding our tremendous
scientific advances, we are still helpless in the face of such calamity.
Human advancement, however impressive, has its limitations; our collective
"strength and might of hand" has its boundaries.

Alongside this lesson, the plague projects a corresponding spiritual
message. Hashem shows us-specifically us, we who generally believe that we
are not partners to the global game of kochi ve'otzem yadi-that we are
deeply mistaken: We too share in the very same hubris, just in the spiritual
rather than physical sense. Even we tend to think that we have control over
our situation-control by means of studying Torah and performing mitzvos, by
davening and by donating to Kupat Ha-Ir. The condition of plague rails us
in. No merit, even that of Torah and mitzvah performance, can save us; those
who believe otherwise share the same arrogance as the Western disposition to
control the world by means of scientific advancement. Neither they, nor we,
wield the reins of absolute power."

<<    But whatever it is you are naturally moved by in all this, and
    if nothing comes on its own, what you hear that resonated. Those
    responsible for their community's spirituality (typically a rav,
    rosh yeshiva, rebbe or for one definition of "community", a parent)
    should view their need to provide guidance in those terms -- in my
    humble opinion.>>

But what if what resonates most easily involves pointing the fingers at
others or moving within the same narrow rut?  That is the risk, isn't it?
That is why starting with the halachic idea of nidui seemed to me a more
appropriate option.  Regarding tzaraat, as you say, it is associated
particularly with lashon hara, but also it is a biblical disease.  A disease
that is regarded as appropriate for them, on their level, and not for us.
While nidui has its own Siman in the Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 334).  It's
a "live" concept, even if being menudeh la-Shamayim is drawing on biblical
roots.  And starting with a premise of being Halachically socially
distanced, mirroring the physical reality of social distancing, on an
individual level, seems to me a little more humble than launching into grand
causes.  The common theme between R' Rothstein and Rabbi Leuchter, it seems
to me, is that we are being punished through our performance of mitzvot.  A
very significant percentage of our community has been infected by a) shul;
b) Purim; c) being mesameach chatan v'kala d) levayas; e) the beis medrish.
Throw in bikur cholim and hachnasat orchim as well I imagine.   As someone
pointed out to me: how many of the mitzvot set out in that Mishnah in Peah
do we have left?  What nidui does is makes those mitzvot precisely what is
assur to the person in nidui!  And that seems to be what we have here.
Obviously it is a different situation for us than for most non-Jews - for
while the wet markets does sound like they might have been violating ever
min hachai,  the ever increasing toll includes so many who were involved in
being rofeh cholim.  Why is a very much harder question.

-Micha

Regards 

Chana



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