Volume 38: Number 23
Fri, 27 Mar 2020
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:37:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Corona related questions
On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote:
> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching
> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis
> a vis Lo Sa'amod?
I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes.
On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera
> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each,
> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan
> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to
> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call
http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it,
Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:40:00 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] ADMIN: AishDas Non-Get-Together, Sunday ch"m!
Save the date!
SAVE THE DATE
Sunday Chol haMo'ed Pesach / April 12, 2020
1pm Eastern / 8pm Israel
We are oganizing an AishDas non-get-together on Zoom!
https://mussarinstitute.zoom.us/j/676621598
There is also an "event" for it on Facebook at
<https://www.facebook.com/events/2955645037811654>
But if you want more details as they exist and don't risk your time
with a Facebook account, just email me at mi...@aishdas.org and ask
to be included.
Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your
http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go
Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger
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Message: 3
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:15:16 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] chassidut
On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable
> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as
> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the
> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt
> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would
> have failed this test. Thoughts?
> Kt
He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his
colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe,
Achiyah Hashiloni.
---------------------------
For clarity, the speaker meant AIUI a gadol from the chain of mesorah
KT and stay safe
Joel Rich
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Message: 4
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:14:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Zoom Seder
.
R' Micha Berger asked:
> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764
> ...
> Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi
> names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA
> systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent?
Yes, very relevant! Read the Hebrew teshuva itself, right in that article.
I know that the print is tiny, but if you can magnify it, you'll find this
in paragraph Aleph:
"Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well
known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa
hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon
Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom
Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many
Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)."
Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei
Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or
whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei
Ashkenaz.
But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. But I
wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a regular
basis? Or maybe they hold it to be ikar hadin but they refrain for other
reasons?
Here's something else I noticed while reading the Hebrew version. The
second half of paragraph Gimel seems to explain their motivation for
issuing this heter, namely that the presence of the grandparents at the
Seder is a unique opportunity for - in *their* words - "inyan hashavat lev
habanim el avotam", that is, to strengthen the children's ties to Torah. I
would think that the medical, mental, and emotional needs of the
grandparents are stronger grounds for leniencies than kiruv, yet it was
mentioned only afterwards, and that surprises me very much.
Akiva Miller
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:24:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Corona related questions
On 25/3/20 6:37 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote:
>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching
>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis
>> a vis Lo Sa'amod?
>
> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes.
>
> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera
>> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each,
>> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan
>> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to
>> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum.
No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question.
In that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE
suggested that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask
the government to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing
people who break it (impossible, since they would have broken no law)
but simply by preventing them from entering the shul while it was at
capacity. So we don't know how RAE would answer the question posed here.
--
Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:14:27 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Fwd: Mila and the virus
The Stanislover Rebbe (London branch), R' Uri Ashkenazi, was niftar
today. According to YWN and the email I got from someone who didn't
want to post the question, but invited me to.
RUA was a popular mohel who YWN describes as "performing thousands of
Brissim over the years". And he was nifar of CoVID-19, an illness that
is particularly communicable.
As a quarantining measure, RHSchachter pasqened that we should not
stand on the minhag of having a minyan at a beris. Just the minimum
number of people necessary.
But this petirah made my correspondant and I wonder about sakanah to
the babies.
Maybe we should be thinking like our ancestors did in the midbar, and
wait beyond 8 days until giving a beris is safer? Did any of you hear
someone discuss the question?
Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 7
From: BenS
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:16:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Zoom seder
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, at 9:23pm EDT, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764
...
>> The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the
>> software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly
>> people who cannot be physically close to their family members due
>> to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their
>> family through the program.
I believe the Rabbonim retracted their Psak.
Ben
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:02:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Corona related questions
On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:24:16PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote:
>>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching
>>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis
>>> a vis Lo Sa'amod?
>> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes.
>> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) ...
> No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In
> that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested
> that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government
> to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it
> (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing
> them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know
> how RAE would answer the question posed here.
If the town's rabbis believe a certain measure is necessary for
medical reasons, but there is no similar law, then it is okay to ask
the magistrate to get the police to enforce it. But, if they believe
the measure is necessary AND it is necessary by law, it's not okay to
have the police there to break up any violations?
Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators,
rather than prevent or break up violations? Because this isn't what
is happening in any of the stories I know of. I didn't think that was
even an option in play when I used your post to answer R/DIB's.
Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)
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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Corona related questions
On 26/3/20 6:02 pm, Micha Berger wrote:
> Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators,
> rather than prevent or break up violations?
Yes, I am assuming that. People are getting fines, in various places,
including Melbourne, where RIB lives. But I'm also asserting a
fundamental difference between a *recommendation* that a shul have a
policeman to help enforce the rules that a it has made on its own
property, versus some uninvolved bystander having a *chiyuv* to *report*
to the authorities a violation of *their* rules.
Even if you agree with the authorities' rules, and even if you think
compliance is a chiyuv, it's a question that needs answering whether you
are even *allowed* to inform on someone who is breaking them, let alone
whether you have a chiyuv to do so. After all, the people breaking the
rules presumably disagree with you on the rules' advisability let alone
on their obligatory nature, and they're breaking them on their turf, not
yours. So it's very different from RAE's case.
--
Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 10
From: <mgl...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder
R' AM: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed
so
> quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point
> *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim...
----
R' MB:
I think it's more difficult than that.
He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long
enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely
still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd?
---------
IIRC, the Maharshal (I think!), in his Teshuvos, asks why we wash for
Urchatz - we just came home and our hands are tahor. IIRC, he answers that
it's k'dai she'yishalu hatinokos. So just saying that the first washing
doesn't make him tahor either, according to that.
KT,
MYG
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Message: 11
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:40:46 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Zoom Seder
On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:30 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well
> known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa
> hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon
> Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom
> Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many
> Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)."
>
> Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei
> Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or
> whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei
> Ashkenaz.
>
The given list of names includes Hachamim from both categories, so the
latter option would seem to be correct.
>
> But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim.
>
The next paragraph points out that we are talking about a scenario where
the computer is turned on before the hag comes in, and we only need the
lekatehila heter of electricity on Yom Tov in order to disregard a
slippery-slope concern that it might be turned off and on again. As I
understand it this is saying that it should be OK for Ashkenazim too under
those circumstances.
>
> But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a
> regular basis?
>
Not so much today, but a generation or two ago this was standard practice.
ROY did not permit it, which has unsurprisingly done a lot to make it less
widespread.
IMHO this psak is anyway only of theoretical application for a number of
reasons. Even leaving aside the possibility that Mashiach will come between
now and seder night, experience shows that the chances of setting up a Zoom
meeting before hag and having everyone still connected by kiddush, let
alone the end of maggid, are minimal.
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Message: 12
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:34 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Taanis Bechorim
.
For decades, I have wondered about the alleged "Seudas Mitzvah" that we
partake of at a siyum on Erev Pesach. A Seudas Mitzvah is what we do at a
wedding, at a sheva brachos, at a bris. Even a Melaveh Malka is more
kavod-dik than the siyum on Erev Pesach. Is this really a siyum? If we eat
a few cookies,are we really yotzay our requirement of celebrating this
happy occasion? And if we are NOT yotzay the obligation of celebrating,
then do we really have permission to break the fast?
Think about that for a moment.
If seems that this question bothered Rav Henkin too. Here's a psak that Rav
Hershel Schachter issued yesterday. See the conclusions that these
questions led them to. (Rav Schachter wrote it in both Hebrew and English,
so it's HIS words, not my translation.)
<<< Regarding the Fast of the Firstborn, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote
that in our time the custom of firstborn sons fasting no longer exists
because everyone participates in a siyum. There is clearly no mandate to
fast since we find people don?t participate in an actual Seudas Mitzvah and
instead, following the siyum, they simply partake of some juice and
cookies. Therefore, Rabbi Henkin felt it was proper to give tzedakah to
take the place of the custom of fasting. In past years those people who are
traveling on Erev Pesach have participated in a siyum over the phone or
internet. The same practice can be relied upon this year when we are not
gathering together because of the Coronavirus. >>>
Rav Shachter's psak can be found on page two at
https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950074/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-1-tevilas-keilim-when-the-mikvah-is-closed/
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