Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 82

Thu, 17 Oct 2019

• 1. Re: Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva (Akiva Miller)
• 2. mimetics (Rich, Joel)
• 3. benefit the deceased ? (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret (Meir Shinnar)
• 5. Re: Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret (Mandel, Seth)

I've never understood the relationship between Pas Habaa bKisnin and Pas
Palter. The whole concept of PHbK is that it is a snack food, and NOT a
staple of the meal. This leads me to two questions:

1) As regards intermarriage, is PHbK any different than other snack foods?
Are cookies and cake more prone to intermarriage than potato chips and
popcorn? Why include it in the halacha of Pas Akum?

2) If PHbK is included in Pas Akum, why allow it the kulos of Pas Palter?
Pas Palter was relaxed because it was difficult to get Pas Yisroel, and
obtaining a staple like bread was a dealbreaker. Did they consider PHbK to
be a staple also? Why be lenient?

I expect the answer will be something like making a Lo Plug for both kinds
of Pas. But the whole point of PHbK is that it is different than Pas Gamur.
<< Insert here several days of pondering how to continue that train of
thought. >>

If Chazal had wanted to, they could very easily have chosen to legislate Lo
Plug: Washing, Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon for ALL types of pas. But
instead, they recognized PHbK as a very different sort of food, and they
gave it all the leniencies of cooked grains, *provided* it is eaten only as
a snack, and not as a meal.

In choosing *not* to go with the "lo plug", they've allowed room for loads
of shailos and confusion. The biggest ones, of course, are "what defines a
meal in this context" and "is xyz Pas Gamur or is it PHbK", and then goes
on to many others. Like what's a meal for Kiddush bMakom Seuda, or eating
cake in the sukkah, etc etc etc, and so on until this thread about Pas
Palter.

So I guess I could phrase my question like this: It seems that in many many
areas of halacha, Chazal were content to consider PHbK as distinct from Pas
Gamur, provided it is eaten as a snack. But for Pas Palter, they seem to
consider  PHbK as identical to Pas Gamur, *even* when eaten as a snack, and
they did this both l'chumra (avoid cookies hacompanies during Aseres Ymei
Teshuva) and l'kula (allow cookies hacompanies the rest of the year). Why
did they (apparently) choose to be inconsistent?

Akiva Miller
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https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/09/jewelry-on-shabbat-pretty-or-prohibited/

> "We have seen that halachic scholars throughout the centuries have exerted
> great effort to justify the common practice of women to wear jewelry on
> Shabbat. In today's milieu, however, there is a greater consciousness of
> legal texts among the general populace, and many people wish to adopt
> an optimal standard of halachic practice. How should a woman of this
> persuasion conduct herself?"

Optimal? Mimetics be darned!

Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov
Joel Rich

Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the
deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh
(e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community
norms...)]

Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov
Joel Rich

Seth Mandel
> What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources
> that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers
> (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent
> of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were
> known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka.

It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik in
his classes ( and it is also in his scollected essays, in a book review
of a book that brings the data - away from my books so can't cite exact
source)that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just
some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini
atzeret (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates
hasidut, even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures

I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l
said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler..

Meir Shinnar

Yes, as I mentioned, there were a couple of families (including
Treibusch, from Rashi) who did not eat in the Sukka all the meals on
Shemini Atzeret. But, as I said, no one paskened that way nor allowed
anyone else to practice that. Saying that one family has a very strange
minhog does NOT mean that everyone should or even is allowed to do it.

From: Meir Shinnar <chide...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 4:50 PM
> It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik
> ... that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just
> some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret
> (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut,
> even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures

> I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l
> said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler..

As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great
talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that
he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that
are against established halokho, such as not eating in the sukka here or
going into a heated mikva on Shabbos. It has been suggested that perhaps
this was do to his friendship with the Tzemach Tzedek. Regardless of the
reason, there are enough of these cases (and the entire lack of any case
where he condemns quesitionalbe chasidic practices) to justify calling
him at the least a "fellow traveler." That does not mean he was not a
talmid chochom. As as for using his book to pasken, everyone also knows
that the "Shulkhan Arukh haRav" was the major other book used to pasken,
and he was much more than a "fellow traveler."

But the poskim knew about the cases where both books departed from
established psak to justify chasidic practices, and so you will not
find people like the Chayye Odom or Mishna Brurah bringing these cases
lahalokho.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union
Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330        e-mail mand...@ou.org


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