Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 71

Mon, 02 Sep 2019

• 1. Re: 15 Av (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Chazal accept medicinal treatments (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: How Fast Do You Daven (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: How Fast Do You Daven (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: How Fast Do You Daven (Akiva Miller)

.
R' Allan Engel wrote:

> The paradigm that allowed new derashos on pesukim (until 'sof mishna' -
> presumably the end of the era of Tannaim) explicitly allows for changes in
> halachic practice on the basis of new derashos.

R' Micha Berger responded:

> And contrary to RAM's recollection -- one of them is Moavi velo Moavis.
>
> Rus Rabba (parasha 2:9[4], 7:7[1], 7:10[5]) attributed to Ploni Almoni
> in Meg' Rus a lack of belief in the brand-new derashah. And besides, what
> will happen to my descendents if a later Sanhedrin pasqens differently?
>
> I think the medrash also uses the idea to explain that Rus did indeed
> convert twice -- once before the derashah, and once after.

Thank you. I accept the correction. Halacha can indeed change, if one's
proofs are strong enough, like in this case.

But exactly what halacha(s) would that drasha have related to?

My understanding is that "Moavi velo Moavis" concerns the halachos of who a
Moabite Jew is allowed to marry; is this person restricted like a mamzer or
not?

If you understand "the derashah" to explain a second conversion, then it
must be that prior to the derashah, Moabites were not allowed to convert at
all, but after the derashah, female Moabites were now allowed to convert.
If so, then Rus converted illegally at the beginning of the story (I don't
know whether or not that would have been valid b'dieved or not), and then
converted k'halacha after the derasha. Is that what you're saying?

Akiva Miller
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On 28/8/19 8:14 am, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> 
> In other words, if our best medical minds believe that a specific 
> treatment DOES work, but they cannot explain HOW it works, then we can 
> (and MUST) ask: how do we know that this is a muttar medical treatment, 
> and not a form of assur magic?

Who says magic is assur?  AIUI the only difference between kishuf and 
sefer yetzira is which powers one uses for it.  Kishuf is doing things 
by the powers of tum'ah, the names of shedim, etc., while doing the 
exact same thing using shemos hakedoshim is 100% mutar.  IOW kishuf is 
*black* magic; white magic is mutar.

*Fake* magic is AIUI assur mid'rabanan because it *purports* to be the 
work of sheidim, which would imply that a fake magician who pretends to 
invoke kedusha would be fine, and certainly that one who (like almost 
all modern magicians) openly denies that he has any real power should be 
fine, even mid'rabanan.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

.
From R' Micha Berger:

> R' Barry Kornblau posted this chart on Facebook.
> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/daveningSpeedChart.jpg
> ...
> You might want to see where you stand; could help motivate
> slowing down enough to think. At least it's been of help for
> me for the past day or two.

If it has helped you, that is great, and I applaud it. But my first
reaction is that there are many people who would find ways to quibble with
R' Kornblau's methodology.

For such people, I have an alternate suggestion: An individual should
create an audio recording of him/herself, reciting some tefila in his usual
way. The person then listens to that recording, and judges for himself
whether or not he actually said the words well enough.

I got this idea a number of years ago, when I suddenly noticed some odd
things about my own davening. At one point, I realized that my lips were
moving, but no sound at all was coming out. And when I say "no sound", I
don't mean that the whisper was so quiet that I couldn't hear myself; I
mean that my breathing had paused, and no sound of any kind was coming out.
On another occasion, I noticed (again while my lips were moving) that my
throat was making a noise that I could describe only as a low buzz,
sounding nothing like any human language that I know of. [And another time,
the words were coming out fine, but I noticed that my eyes were progressing
along an entirely different page. But that's a whole 'nother problem, for a
whole 'nother thread.]

Practical implementation of this plan is not difficult nowadays. Many
smartphones have a Voice Recorder which works perfectly for this. Simply
set it up, turn it on, hold it close enough to pick up your voice, and
daven exactly as you usually do. Another option is to dial an unattended
telephone, and let the answering machine record your voice.

In my opinion this procedure is far too distracting to do during Shmoneh
Esreh, but Al Hamichyah and Aleinu would work just as well. The important
thing is to make a recording that is a good representation of what you
usually do. And then listen to that recording and remind yourself that
although Hashem knows what's in our hearts, He also wants to hear the words.

Of course, there will be some people who, for the purposes of this
experiment, will deliberately enunciate the words just a bit better than
usual, to help the recording come out well. Such people don't really need
to listen to the recording afterwards; they already have their answer.

Akiva Miller
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On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 11:13:29PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
>  From R' Micha Berger:
>> R' Barry Kornblau posted this chart on Facebook.
>> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/daveningSpeedChart.jpg

...
> For such people, I have an alternate suggestion: An individual should
> create an audio recording of him/herself, reciting some tefila in his usual
> way. The person then listens to that recording, and judges for himself
> whether or not he actually said the words well enough.

This is a different goal, and I think your methodology would get in the
way of RBK's goal. (Pity I don't habe an email address with which to
invite him to this conversation.)

RBK wrote about going slow enough to think about peirush hamilim.

You are talking about going slow enough to actually say the words clearly.

If you slow down by spending brain-time on how you are uttering the words,
you aren't freeing up attention to say them with meaning.

...
> Of course, there will be some people who, for the purposes of this
> experiment, will deliberately enunciate the words just a bit better than
> usual, to help the recording come out well. Such people don't really need
> to listen to the recording afterwards; they already have their answer.

I think there would be more people who simply because they're thinking
about the subject will end up on the better end of their bell curve
*without* consciously trying.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 What we do for ourselves dies with us.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   What we do for others and the world,
Author: Widen Your Tent      remains and is immortal.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Albert Pine

.
I had a suggestion:
> ... The person then listens to that recording, and judges for
> himself whether or not he actually said the words well enough.

R' Micha Berger responded:
> This is a different goal, and I think your methodology would get
> in the way of RBK's goal. ...
> RBK wrote about going slow enough to think about peirush hamilim.
> You are talking about going slow enough to actually say the words
> clearly.

I think it is safe to say that RMB and I agree that one's ultimate goal
should include (among many other things) BOTH peirush hamilim and saying
them clearly. The question on which we *might* disagree is the sequence of
steps towards reaching that goal.

My understanding is that if one says his prayers with a basic appreciation
for what he is doing, then he will be yotzay on some level, even if he
doesn't understand the individual words. On the other hand, if he
understands the words, but the essential parts come out as gibberish (or
worse, not at all) then there is no degree of kavanna that can make up for
the fact that simply *did* *not* *say* the tefilah.

That's why I think one's first goal should be to actually enunciate the
words. Once we agree on that l'halacha, then we can move on to the
l'maaseh, which I suppose could involve a comparative weighting of various
tefilos, and even of phrases within those tefilos. Certainly, the portions
that are m'akev one's chiyuv would rank higher, and portions that are
"merely" minhag would rank lower. One would also ask, "How accurate must
the pronunciation be? Which inaccuracies are m'akev?"

But those are mere details. My main point is that the top priority must be
to actually say the words. Too often, I see people who think they're saying
Birkas Hamazon, but their lips are barely moving, not even for sounds (like
b and m) which are difficult or impossible to say if the lips don't touch.

Akiva Miller
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