Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 65

Wed, 14 Aug 2019

• 1. Re: Showering During the 9 Days (Shoshana Boublil)
• 2. Showering during the 9 Days (Joseph Kaplan)
• 3. Re: Showering During the 9 Days (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: Showering during the 9 Days (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Showering During the 9 Days (Arie Folger)
• 6. Chop a Mitzvah? (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: Chop a Mitzvah? (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Chop a Mitzvah? (Micha Berger)

I was reading R' Micha's comments on RYBS's view of halacha and ceremony
and was struck by the worldview that is so different from the viewpoint
discussed in the introduction to the Makor Chaim by Rav Chaim David
HaLevy.

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 15:50:08 -0400
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
...
> This idea that in true Judaism, meaning is only found in halakhah goes as
> far as to shape the Rav's rulings about how to practice mourning during
> these three weeks. The Rav was certain that Chazal and the rishonim could
> not possibly have established practices for the Three Weeks that did not
> follow the forms of aveilus for the death of a family member...

> The point in common is that to the Rav's worldview, there couldn't be a
> minhag of mourning that didn't have the halachically established structure
> for aveilus. Such a practice would be "ceremony".
...

In the introduction to the Makor Chaim (IIRC), Rav Chaim David HaLevy
mentions his reasons for writing this halachic set of books. He mentions
a discussion with Rav AYH Kook and how Rav Kook told him that the modern
Jew needs not just Halacha but also Machshava. Therefore, in order to
increase knowledge of Halachah it is imperitive to mix in Machashava.

The result was a series of books where every single halachic topic has
an introduction discussing related matters of Machshava, that at times
also include the issues of feelings and ceremony and much, much more.
His introduction to lighting candles which talks about the meaning
of increasing the light in the house, both in physical and spiritual
ways is enlightening. Many other examples are available and I highly
recommend the series (and his shu"t).

We have here two Gedolim who were contemporaries, and who came from
different backgrounds and worldviews and both acted to increase Torah
in the world through increased knowledge of halachah.

Shoshana L. Boublil, Israel

1. R. Yosef Adler has said numerous times both publicly (as recently as 2
weeks ago) and privately ((to congregants sitting shiva) that the Rav
permitted showering during the 9 days and shiva because today everyone is
considered an istinis. 

2. R? Micha repeats the story told in the Frimer?s? article about the Rav
and the woman who wanted to wear a tallit. I note 2 things. First, it was
printed after the Rav died and he never told the story publicly in his
lifetime nor did he have a chance to confirm, deny, or explain it after it
became public. I searched to see if (a) the story was ever told in his
lifetime or (b) if there?s any source other than the one in the Frimers?
article but I was unable to find any. 

Second, I was not a talmid of the Rav but I did discuss the story with
several people who were his talmidim or who knew him well. A number told me
that while the Rav would, of course, not see any value in wearing a tallit
without tzitzit, the fact that he would put a women from his Boston
community through such a test rather than handle it in a much more gentle
and sensitive manner (can you imagine how she felt at the end if the story
is accurate) is difficult to accept. Because of this as well as some 
halachic questions about the story, I find it difficult to accept its
accuracy. 
Joseph

Sent from my iPhone

> I was reading R' Micha's comments on RYBS's view of halacha and ceremony
> and was struck by the worldview that is so different from the viewpoint
> discussed in the introduction to the Makor Chaim by Rav Chaim David
> HaLevy.
> 
> 
> 
> In the introduction to the Makor Chaim (IIRC), Rav Chaim David HaLevy
> mentions his reasons for writing this halachic set of books. He mentions
> a discussion with Rav AYH Kook and how Rav Kook told him that the modern
> Jew needs not just Halacha but also Machshava. Therefore, in order to
> increase knowledge of Halachah it is imperitive to mix in 
> 
> We have here two Gedolim who were contemporaries, and who came from
> different backgrounds and worldviews and both acted to increase Torah
> in the world through increased knowledge 

/:::::::::::
Iiuc the Rav did Not disagree about hashkafa being important but rather
felt that it was derived from halacha. R Rosensweig from RIETS usually
gives an introduction to each tractate that he teaches at outlining the
underlying philosophical underpinnings that carry through or perhaps stem
from Halacha
Kt
Joel rich
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2. R? Micha repeats the story told in the Frimer?s? article about the Rav
and the woman who wanted to wear a tallit. I note 2 things. First, it was
printed after the Rav died and he never told the story publicly in his
lifetime nor did he have a chance to confirm, deny, or explain it after it
became public. I searched to see if (a) the story was ever told in his
lifetime or (b) if there?s any source other than the one in the Frimers?
article but I was unable to find any.
================================
I dislike the story but I'd suggest contacting  R' Kelemer:

But first, the story as told by Rabbis Aryeh and Dov Frimer (?Women?s Prayer Services ? Theory and Practice I? in Tradition, 32:2 Winter 1998, p. 41):

R. Soloveitchik believed he had good reason to doubt that greater
fulfillment of mitsvot motivated many of these women, as illustrated in the
following story, related to us by R. Yehuda Kelemer, former Rabbi of the
Young Israel of Brookline, Massachusetts. During the mid-1970?s, one of R.
Kelemer?s woman congregants at the Young Israel of Brookline was interested
in wearing a tallit and tsitsit during the prayer services. After R.
Kelemer had expressed to her his hesitations about the matter, she
approached R. Soloveitchik ? who lived in Brookline ? on the matter. The
Rav explained that in light of the novelty of the action, it needed to be
adopted gradually. Accordingly, he suggested that she first try wearing a
tallit without tsitsit (which is, of course, allowed for women.) The Rav
asked the woman to return to him after three months, at which time they
would discuss the matter further. When the two met once again, she
described to R. Soloveitchik the magnificent nature of her reli
 gious experience in wearing the tallit. The Rav pointed out to the woman
 that wearing a tallit without tsitsit lacked any halakhically authentic
 element of mitsvah. It was obvious, therefore, that what generated her
 sense of ?religious high? was not an enhanced kiyyum hamitsvah, but
 something else. Under such circumstances, the Rav maintained, wearing a
 tallit was an inappropriate use of the mitsvah. Consequently, the Rav
 forbade the woman from wearing a tallit with tsitsit.

KT
Joel Rich
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R'Alan Engel asked:
> So where, in the Rav's structure, does the minhag of refraining from meat
> and wine in the Nine Days fit in, considering that it appears only in
> aveilus for an onein, and not in shiva, sheloshim etc? Furthermore, some
> specifically recommend drinking wine during the shiva.

I heard besheim Rav Hershel Schachter that the Rov held it based on Bava
Batra 60b, and that though Rabbi Yehoshua rejected the total abstention
from meat and wine, we still do it for a few days a year.

Our Rabbis taught: When the Temple was destroyed for the second time, large
numbers in Israel became ascetics, binding themselves neither to eat meat
nor to drink wine. R. Joshua got into conversation with them and said to
them: My sons, why do you not eat meat nor drink wine?
They replied: Shall we eat flesh which used to be brought as an offering on
the altar, now that this altar is in abeyance? Shall we drink wine which
used to be poured as a libation on the altar, but now no longer?
He said to them: If that is so, we should not eat bread either, because the
meal offerings have ceased.
They said: [That is so, and] we can manage with fruit. We should not eat
fruit either,
[he said,] because there is no longer an offering of firstfruits.
Then we can manage with other fruits [they said].
But, [he said,] we should not drink water, because there is no longer any
ceremony of the pouring of water.
To this they could find no answer, so he said to them: My sons, come and
listen
to me. Not to mourn at all is impossible, because the blow has fallen. To
mourn overmuch is also impossible, because we do not impose on the
community a hardship which the majority cannot endure,
...
It has been taught: R. Ishmael ben Elisha said: Since the day of the
destruction of the Temple we should by rights bind ourselves not to eat
meat nor drink wine, only we do not lay a hardship on the community unless
the majority can endure
it.

Shenizkeh lirot benechamat Tzion,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/

<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/01/28/wir-missionieren-nicht-aber-warum-nicht/>
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Thought experiments: There's a mitzvah that's equally incumbent on a group that you are part of:
1) do you "chop" (grab) the mitzvah (perhaps show how important/dear it is) or let someone else do it (perhaps showing humility)?
2) What if you are looked at as the senior member of the group - does it change your calculus?

KT
Joel Rich

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On 14/8/19 10:39 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Thought experiments: There?s a mitzvah that?s equally incumbent on a 
> group that you are part of:
> 1) do you ?chop? (grab) the mitzvah (perhaps show how important/dear it 
> is) or let someone else do it (perhaps showing humility)?

If there's a rush of others to do it, then "Hatzenuim moshchim es 
yedeihem."  If nobody is stepping forward then "Bemakom she'ein anashim".



-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 02:39:30PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> 2) What if you are looked at as the senior member of the group -
> does it change your calculus?

If the mitzvah requires convincing people it is even mutar, yes.

For example, the Taz (OC 328:5) says that if ch"v one needs to "violate"
(?) Shabbos for the sake of a choleh sheyeish bo saqanah, and the rav
is present, he should do it. Quoting Yuma 84b (which is also quoted in
the Yad Shabbos 2:3):
   These things are not done not through an aku"n, not through a qatan,
   ela al yedei gedolei Yisrael
   and you do not say let these things be done by women or Kusim.

There is a famous in YU circles story where RYBS, back when he
was Berel, got sick, and R' Chaim told R Moshe to turn on
the light so that the doctor could see better. R Moshe hesitated,
and RCB called him an apiqoreis for doing so. With the explanaiton
that the question wasn't about being meiqil in Shabbs, but about
being machmir in piquach nefesh. They ask why RCB didn't do it
himself; but bekhol zos, no one expected the doctor to.

(The difference between aku"m and Kusim, as in this gemara, is worth its
own conversation.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but to become a tzaddik.
Author: Widen Your Tent                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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