Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 15

Tue, 26 Feb 2019

• 1. The youngest child (was: Does "ben" mean "son" or "child"?) (Michael Poppers)
• 2. 2 Women working on Rosh Chodesh questions (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Pikudei Clothing makes (or breaks) the man. (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Chain of Mesorah (Professor L. Levine)
• 5. Re: Chain of Mesorah (Joshua Meisner)
• 6. Re: Chain of Mesorah (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Chain of Mesorah (Saul Guberman)
• 8. Re: Chain of Mesorah (Simon Montagu)
• 9. Re: Chain of Mesorah (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Chain of Mesorah (Simon Montagu)
• 11. The Meshekh Chokhmah on Abortion (Micha Berger)

In Avodah V37n14, R'Micha responded to R'AMiller:
> Having the youngest ask does seem
to be a minhag that arose in comparatively recent times, given that I
also failed to find a maqor. <
Perhaps it's part&parcel of evoking questions from the
might-soon-fall-asleep'ers that (after a series of
questionable/strange/unusual pre-"Maggid" actions) they themselves are
bidden to formally "ask"/state/exclaim/sing "Mah nishtanah" (in a typical
Yuntef meal, they are not given a leading role), much less do so about
future actions (e.g. the 2nd dipping).

All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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1. While the Shulchan Aruch Mentions the practice of women not working on
Rosh Chodesh in oc 417,His wording was of particular interest	 I have not
found this practice mentioned the Rambam but was wondering if anybody else
is aware of him mentioning it. 

2. Also rashi in Megilah 23b sv rashei chadashim is interesting -do  We
have any idea who ended the parentheses quoting Tosafot? I also assumed
that Rashi goes on at such length because there is no source in the bavli
that talks about women only not doing work then.

 As always any insights appreciated 
> 
> Kt
> Joel
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Part of this portion goes into meticulous detail regarding the 'bigdei
kehuna."  The word "beged," in addition to meaning "garment" can also mean
"betrayal" ("bagad" to deal treacherously and "b'gidah" treachery). What is
this telling us?  Clothing, garments or vestments like anything else used
improperly is a betrayal of what's right. 
 
When the garments were used for holiness, they were "bigdei hakodesh." This
term "bigdei hakodesh? occasionally appears in the Torah  (Ex.39:1).  Where
do we ever hear of holy garments?  Could you imagine going to Macy's and
requesting a holy pair of jeans [they'd probably refer you to the Salvation
Army].	The word "kadosh" can also have the opposite meaning of holy.  If
the bigdei kehuna were properly utilized, then there was Kedusha in the
positive sense.  But if not, it was a betrayal to HaShem and the kedusha
was reversed.
 
Chazak! Chazak! Venischazeik! 
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The following is fro today's Hakhel email bulletin.


GENERATIONS II! In last week?s Bulletin, we provided a chart showing how
few the generations really are since our receipt of the Torah at Sinai--and
the transmission from generation to generation. A master mechaneich has
provided us with two additional, more professionally prepared, charts,
which we present by the following links:



http://tinyurl.com/zpkbwhq<;https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl.com%2Fzpkbwhq&;data=02%7C01%7Cllevine%40stevens.edu%7C216a8c9e0a0c4ec66b4408d69b0870bb%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C0%7C636866857894903401&sdata=SkyFGPE%2BBU6uG55yGJyShrn%2F29qhYDhsLLjmJzFCqH4%3D&reserved=0>



http://tinyurl.com/hw6bxe5<;https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl.com%2Fhw6bxe5&;data=02%7C01%7Cllevine%40stevens.edu%7C216a8c9e0a0c4ec66b4408d69b0870bb%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C0%7C636866857894903401&sdata=hn2mDpjxApNHlouU4nTemV10zxmgY8nqgqQar5UX51s%3D&reserved=0>


After looking at the list I sent an email to Hakhel with the questions below.


Is there a reason why the Chofetz Chaim is not on this list?  Is there a reason why there are no Chassidishe rebbes on this list?


YL
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On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 10:46 AM Professor L. Levine via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> After looking at the list I sent an email to Hakhel with the questions
> below.
>
>
> Is there a reason why the Chofetz Chaim is not on this list?  Is there a
> reason why there are no Chassidishe rebbes on this list?
>

As shown at the bottom of the second list, this chart is the specific
linear mesorah chain for the talmidim of Valley Torah High School (VTHS).
R' Avrohom Stulberger, the rosh hayeshiva, appears to be a musmach of
Yeshivas Chofetz Chaim, which is why the chain goes up through R' Henach
Leibowitz and R' Dovid Leibowitz and thereby up through the Alter of
Slabodka, his rebbe the Alter of Kelm, and his rebbe R' Yisroel Salanter
and thereby through Volozhin and beyond, all the way up to the 40-step list
that one can find in the hakdama to the Rambam.  A branched mesorah tree,
of course, would also include the Alter of Novardhok, the Chofetz Chaim and
many chassidishe rebbes, but that is not the purpose of this list.

Interestingly, R' Dovid Leibowitz was a great-nephew of the Chofetz Chaim
and learned in Radin until the age of 19 (where he also learned under R'
Naftali Trop), but in the interest of keeping the list linear, the compiler
chose only his rebbe muvhak, the Alter of Slabodka, for this list.

Josh
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On 25/2/19 9:57 am, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:

> After looking at the list I sent an email to Hakhel with the questions 
> below.
> 
> 
> Is there a reason why the Chofetz Chaim is not on this list?? Is there a 
> reason why there are no Chassidishe rebbes on this list?
> 

The answer is obvious.  The first list presents the chain of mesorah to 
a specific individual, and the second to the students at a particular 
high school.  In neither case was the Chofetz Chaim or any chassidic 
rebbe part of that specific chain.

This is a little ironic in the second case, since the school in question 
is part of the Chofetz Chaim network, but the fact is that while Reb 
Dovid did learn from his great-uncle, his rebbe muvhak was the Slabodker 
Alter.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 10:46 AM Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> The following is fro today's Hakhel email bulletin.
...

I would say that the people who did the lists were trying to trace their
own mesorah.  They are not  Chassidishe, so no  Chassidishe Rabbonim.  The
bigger question is where is the RIF, RAN and RAMBAM.  Also any gap greater
than 60 years would seem to be a problem.  How many people have major
talmidim after that time frame.

Saul

On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 5:46 PM Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> The following is fro today's Hakhel email bulletin.
...

I assume the objective is to produce a specific chain of massora, rav to
talmid, to students at a specific institution -- "VTHS/BMNA" (where is
this?). Otherwise, I have no idea why you only note the Chofetz Chaim and
Chassidishe rebbes as missing -- almost everybody is missing! Where are the
Rambam, the Rif, the Rosh, the Tur, and the Beit Yosef? Where are the
Ramban, the Rashba, the RItba and the Ran?

On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 02:57:43PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: Is there a reason why the Chofetz Chaim is not on this list? Is there
: a reason why there are no Chassidishe rebbes on this list?

Everything up to and including Rav Ashi is from the haqdamah to the Yad
<http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/0000n.htm#21> par 21. But at some point it
turns into a rebbe-talmid chain for R' Shach. It's not like it can list
every member of Chazal, every gaon, rishon and acharon. And Rav Shach
wasn't a muvhak of the CC or any talmidim of Chassidishe rabbeim. Notice
(ironically, given the start of the list) the Rambam isn't there either --
the chain is distinctly Ashkenazi.

I did one for myself back in 2009:  http://www.aishdas.org/asp/my-mesorah

Now, how it's flawed: It's two different things spliced together

- The Rambam lists the key baalei mesorah.

  It requires believing that the medrash about Pinechas's centuries long
  lifespan is historical. Then again, the Rambam did, and you don't get
  more rationalist than that.

  But from a rebbe-talmid perspective: Osniel ben Kenaz probably
  taught more talmidim than Yehoshua did. The entire time Yehoshua led,
  ObK had no other job. And he's the one who was able to restore the
  Torah forgotten during aveilus for Mosh. Derashos and TSBP first run
  through him.

- Through the geonim it lists every gaon of Pumpedisa. Listing every
  gaon fits the key baalei mesorah pattern, but choosing Pumpedisa
  over Sura (which is only where Rav Ashi compiled shas) was because of
  the next pattern -- the chain of rabbe-talmid runs through R Hai Gaon
  to Rabbeinu Gershom.

  Sort of. Rabbeinu Gershom's primary rebbe was Rabbeinu Yehudah Liontin
  HaKohein. But we don't know the chain to Rivam Ka"tz, so we use Rabbeinu
  Gershom's 2nd-hand exposire to Pumbesisa instead. And that's where
  the "lead baal mesorah" list gets spliced into the rebbe-talmid list.

- Because of the previous item, it has too many generations. There
  are geonim that served only a few years. I bet if we knew who learned
  from who, we could skip numerous entries in period from Chazal to Rabbeinu
  Gershom. Enough to make up for any nevi'im elided over because of Pinechas.

(And has a few late rishonim in the wrong place.)

Still, with all the flaws, it's nice to know that I can demonstrate that
in principle, the TSBP Rav Dovid taught me in NY in the 1980s is indeed
the same one Moshe Rabbeinu was given.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When you come to a place of darkness,
mi...@aishdas.org        you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org   You light a candle.
Fax: (270) 514-1507        - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 10:32 PM Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

>   It requires believing that the medrash about Pinechas's centuries long
>   lifespan is historical. Then again, the Rambam did, and you don't get
>   more rationalist than that.
>
>
I don't think it requires a longer lifetime for Pinehas than is explicit in
Navi -- he is still active at the end of Shoftim (20:28).
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Dear Rabbi Korbin,

I just read your reply to R Herzfeld's op-ed in the Fev 13th post on
Jewish Journal, "Open Debate Continued: Is N.Y.s Abortion Law Halachic?"
<https://jewishjournal.com/culture/lifestyle/first_person/293833>

What caught my eye is your citation of the first Meshekh Chokhmah on
this week's parashah (Shemos 35:2) which I happen to be in the middle
of preparing to teach.

You imply that R' Meir Simchah haKohein miDvinsk holds that abortion is
murder, by citing the first Meshekh Chokhmah on this week's parashah.

What he says, though, is that it's assur, even if the punishment is left
to beis din shel maalah. RYMhK does not actually say that said issur is
retzichah. He calls it "makeih adam", a quote of the pasuq. But never
says anything about murder.

Rabbi Herzfeld's statement that it takes a somewhat unique reading of the
Rambam to conclude that he believes that abortion of retzichah appears a
solid argument to me. the Bach doesn't reach that conclusion. After all,
Hil' Rotzeich 1:9 gives different pesaqwim for an ubar a moment before
hotzi rosho, and the same baby a moment after. The Rambam's "kerodeif
achareha lehorgah" appears to only be sufficient for an ubar, and for
an actual tinoq, "ein dochin nefesh mipenei nefesh". Because, leshitaso,
an ubar isn't a "nefesh" yet.

Similarly, you cite Nishmas Avraham CM IV 425.1 (vol II, pg 220). But he
explicitly says that "mevu'ar midivrei haRambam, haSmag, haR' Bechayei
vehaSA" that there is a prohibition of killing an ubar, "im lo midin
rodeif". Similarly his citation of the CI says that "mai chatzis dama
didakh" doesn't apply. Why not, if the ubar is a human whose abortion
is actual retzichah?

And the NA even discusses whether the issur is deOraisa or
deRabbanan! Even though he does conclude rov poqim hold it's deOraisa,
at least if done directly and not gerama (eg fasting). Citing him as a
source that says abortion is retzichah is far from what one can actually
prove from Rav Avraham. Because he doesn't actually say in that citation
what that issur is. And all that back and forth implies it's nothing
as cut-and-dry as just throwing his name into the list.

Similarly, Achiezer III 65.14 (daf 65 amudah 4) concludes that aborting
an ubar before 40 days may not be assur min haTorah. And after 40 days
(first paragraph on the amudah) he explicitly states, "gam be'ubar
af al pi delo igrei nefesh legabei din retzichah" we are still machelel
Shabbos to save him.

In the paragraph in between, R CO Grozhinsky discusses whether the issur
is even deOraisa! Tosafos in Chullin holds its assur derabbanan, but in
Sanhedrin that it's deOraisa. The Achitezer cites the Chiddushei haRan on
the case of a pregnant woman hayotzeis leihareig, that we don't wait until
the baby is born, "kivan shelo yatza la'avir ha'olam, lo chaishinan". And
RCOG concludes from the Ran that the issur is not min haTorah.

In Yachel Yisrael II #65, end of pg 150 Rabbi Lau explicitly writes that
an ubar is not a human for retzichah to apply, "ein ledamos es hamatzav
shel chayei ha'ubar lechayim shel adam."

So, of the meqoros you site, I only see where Rav Moshe calls abortion
retzichah. From what I've seen of the shu"t in the past, the only
ones who says that abortion is murder are 20th cent American yeshivish
posqim. Which admittedly is itself an impressive group one can't
summarily dismisss, as we're including not only Rav Moshe, but also R'
Aharon Kotler and R Yaaqov Kamenecki.

And I say "yeshivish" because R YB Soloveitchik allowed the abortion
of a fetus with Tay Sachs in the 6th month. ("Mentor of Generations:
Reflections on Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik edited by R Zev Eleff,
"The Rav: His Impact on My Life, [R] Haskel Looksteing, pg 106.)

It is true that in "The Emergence of Ethical Man", pg 28, the Rav writes
"The murder of an unborn child is classified as a crime", it is still
unclear the crime is retzichah. To quote the previous sentence "Turning
to the beginning of life, even the embryo in the womb is considered under
many aspects a person endowed with juridic prerogatives." And on the next
page RYBS contrasts abortion or euthenasia, which are outright assur, with
the machloqes whether ha-mezakeh le-ubar kanah. It is very hard to argue
he holds that an ubar is a full human in all ways.

I can't say we have a raayah the Rav held it wasn't murder, but we really
have little indication that he did. Especially in light of the above
pesaq. Tay Sachs isn't piquach nefesh for the mother, that we have the
Rambam's usual matir of the ubar being in effect kerodeif.

And Rav Aharon Lichtenstein said, according to an unreviewed presentation
of a sichah at
<https://www.etzion.org.il/en/cultivate-and-guard-universal-duties-mankind>:
    Even if we were to accept that indeed it is the womans own body,
    we totally reject the conception that she then can do with it as
    she pleases. This is a completely anti-halakhic perception. It
    rests on a secular assumption that, as it were, "My Nile is my own;
    I made it for myself" (Yechezkel 29:3), as if we are the source of
    our own existence and therefore the masters of our own being. This
    is assuredly not the case.

He could be arguing leshitasam, but more straightforwardly it would seem
that Rav Aharon holds that an ubar is indeed part of the mother (as implied
by the dinim of hezeq of a shifchah), but still aborting it is assur.


Lemaaseh:

If abortion is indeed assur for reasons other than retzichah, that would
change what legislation we should support. Because even just one women
in a piquach nefesh situation, would be a greater consideration than all
those assur abortions a law may permit. And even that piquach nefesh is
not literal death, or the probability of death isn't high enough for
the law to allow, but is sufficient for her poseiq to permit. And so,
since it is impossible to get consensus about what that would mean,
never mind getting a voting block strong enough for halachic limits to
reach a court, how would we be allowed to back any Pro-Life legislation?

Whereas if we were talking about abortion as actual retzichah, then a rape
victim who couldn't step forward for 40 days couldn't get an abortion.
Even if she is a naive chassidishe teenage girl whose therapist believes
she couldn't handle carrying her attacker's baby to term without real
risk of ending up a shotah to the point of not being mechuyeves bemitzvos.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Cc: Avodah Torah Discussion Group

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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