# Avodah Mailing List

## Volume 36: Number 126

### Tue, 06 Nov 2018

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 15:49:18 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Length, the Aruch haShulchan's shitah

```
The AhS discusses length a few times, but I just passed CM 218:1. It ends:
And know that according to the measure in our country of Russia,
every 4 amos in the gemara is 3 arshin of ours,
which is 7 regel ["fut"] which is one sazhen.
And every tefach is 2 vieshoks.

Well, there is the translations from wikipedia's page on "Obsolete
Russian Units of Measurement"
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsolete_Russian_units_of_measurement>.

1 fut = 30.48 cm (= 1' British Empirial) = 3/7 arshin
1 arshin = 71.12cm = 2-1/3'
1 sachen = 3 arshin = 2.1336m = 7'

So, 4 amos = 3 arshin
1 ammah = 3/4 arshin = 3/4 * 2-1/3 ft = 1.75' = 21"

1 vershok = 1/16 of an arshin = 4.445cm = 1-3/4"

Meaning a tefach is 3.5". ( 1 tefach * 6 tefachim / ammah = 21" = 1 ammah)

Compare to RMF (IM OC 1:136) who says that a tefach is 4.54" (9cm)
and an ammah is 21-1/4" (53.98cm).

Given the round numbers the AhS is working with -- 3/4 of a local unit
of measure -- RMF and the AhS could differ only by rounding tolerance.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
mi...@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

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Message: 2
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 21:16:27 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] What kind of Twins were Yaakov and Eisav?

```
RSRH says that Yaakov and Eisav were identical twins. See

http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/identical_twins.pdf

For more on this see

https://www.ajol.info/index.php/samj/article/viewFile/157422/147034

YL
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 16:35:11 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] What kind of Twins were Yaakov and Eisav?

```
On Mon, Nov 05, 2018 at 09:16:27PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: RSRH says that Yaakov and Eisav were identical twins. See
: http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/identical_twins.pdf

There was a 1979 paper by [Dr?] Philip Lanzkowsky in the American Academy
of Pediatrics Journal on the topic.
<http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/64/3/309>
The AAP Journal even cites RSRH!

Abstract:
Polycythmia as a result of twin-to-twin transfusion in monozygotic
twins has only been recognized as a clinical entity in the last few
decades. The first recorded case of polycythemia in the newborn due
to twin-to-twin transfusion, however, was reported in the Bible:
"And when her (Rebekah) days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold,
there were twins in her womb. And the first came forth ruddy, all over
like a hairy mantle; and they called his name Esau...". Genesis XXV,
24-26. A ruddy newborn twin is a clear description of polycythemia
in the newborn presumably due to twin-to-twin transfusion. According
to Hirsch,[1] despite the contrastrating differences between Esau
and Jacob, they were identical twins with complete exterior
similarity. Twin-to-twin transfusion occurs in 15% of identical
twins. One may further speculate that because of the marked
intellectual and emotional differences between Esau and his brother
Jacob, that Esau's intellectual restrictions might very well have
been evidence of brain damage due to cerebral sludging as a result
of polycythemia or kernicterus due to uncorrected hyperbilirubinemia
pursuant to polycythemia. "... nothing is new under the sun.... It
has already been in the ages before us."[2]

The article itself is behind a paywall, though.

The problem is that Rabbeinu Chananel quotes R Yosi that Yaaqov was
conceived first. And R' Yosi is an amora.

As my kids and I each learned in our respective parashah classes in
elementary school, Yaaqov was allegedly really the bechor, because the
pebble that comes out of the vessel last was the one put into the vessel
first. It's the one nearest the exit, after all.

I say allegedly, because bekhorah doesn't really go to the second twin.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

```

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Message: 4
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 16:36:32 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] RYS and His Son Going to College (was Reading

```
At 02:17 PM 11/5/2018, R Micha wrote:
>HaMagid was an shomer Shabbos *Haskalishe* newspaper. For example,
>they did a piece on Yom Tov Lipman Lipkin's (a/k/a Lipman Yisroelovitch
>Lipkin, as he was registered under) going to college for a degree in
>math, and praising R' Yisrael Salanter for being liberal enough to let it
>happen. (In reality, there is no indication RYS agreed to the decision.
>And the son ends up OTD, so at some point father and son part hashkafic
>ways.)

He did not agree with  nor approve of  his son's decision to get a
college education.

>> From The Mussar Movement, Volume 1, Part 1 pages 313 - 314.
>>R. Israel, however, was deeply distressed that his son had
>>abandoned the study of Torah, since the son had excelled so well in
>>it in his youth. The father derived no comfort at all from the
>>son's remarkable achievements in the world of science, and cut off
>>his support during all the son's student years. R. Israel exerted
>>every effort to restore his son to Torah study. When Hamaggid
>>reported in 1865, that "Mr. Lipkin was on his way to Koenigsberg to
>>son of R. Israel of Salant, and that he was "a pride to his saintly
>>father, the Gaon, as well, may he live, who did not prevent the son
>>from attending lectures at university, and so to integrate Torah
>>and science, for the greater glory of the sons of our people." A
>>few weeks later the same periodical (No. 11) carried a letter over
>>the signature of R. Israel with these remarks: "Since Truth is the
>>lamp at the feet of the righteousness that goes about on earth, I
>>find it my duty publicly to proclaim that no glory accrues to me,
>>as the slip of your pen would seem to indicate, in respect of my
>>son. On the contrary, to me this is a 'bitterness of the spirit'.
>>My heart grieves at the path which my son has wanted to set for
>>himself. Whoever loves his soul and has the power to persuade him,
>>to turn his desire not to run counter to my will and wishes, will
>>do a great favor to one as depressed in spirit as I am today".
>>Nor was there any contradiction between R. Israel's personal
>>circles. There was nothing in his views to prevent him from trying
>>to infiltrate Torah inside the walls of the university and to
>>influence students. Furthermore, he employed every means at his
>>disposal to guard his son against straying from Judaism. He
>>journeyed specially to St. Petersburg to extract a three-fold
>>promise: that his son would observe Shabbat, refrain from eating
>>trefah food, and not shave. [27] He would say that were he able to
>>disguise himself as a woman, he would go to work in the restaurant
>>patronized by his son, so as to supervise the kashrut. He also
>>requested R. Isaac Blazer, then rabbi in St. Petersburg, by mail,
>>to keep an eye on the son. [28] In this way, it is said, the son
>>remained a loyal Jew.
>>[27.] As related by Rabbi A. D. Berkovsky. Presumably this was the
>>journey to St. Petersburg undertaken that year, 1872, as mentioned
>>above, in connection with his political activities. R. Naftali
>>Amsterdam is reputed to have related that, when R. Israel was in
>>St. Petersburg, several of the university professors remarked to
>>the son that they would want to see what made his father so great.
>>The son suggested that they ask his father the most difficult
>>question in geometry they could propound. They submitted a problem
>>which had engaged their minds at that time. R. Israel studied it
>>for a few minutes, and solved it to the astonishment of all the
>>specialists in the field (told by R. Abraham Braude).
>>[28.] R. Israel's last letter to R. Isaac Blazer concerning his
>>gentile baked bread for the past three months R. Israel understood
>>this to imply that his son had been dead for three months, since no
>>other bread was available in the capital.

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Message: 5
From: Toby Katz
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 22:18:40 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Reading Newspapers and Other secular Literature

```

From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>

: The Levanon and the Magid were both Torah publications. So no, the
: newspapers! [--old TK]

HaMagid was an shomer Shabbos *Haskalishe* newspaper....

Not JO. (Which also isn't reading the news on Shabbos, regardless of
whose paper.)

About my earlier mention of the Netziv's Zionism, both were Zionist
papers.

?
?>>>>
?
When we speak of the Haskalah or of maskilim we are generally speaking of a
secular intellectual and academic movement and of? people who were not
religious and who were often virulently anti-religious.? Wissenschaft des
Judentums types. There definitely were secular, anti-religious journals
being published in Europe in the 19th century, some in Hebrew, others in
European languages.? These were not the journals that the Netziv was
reading and discussing with his talmidim on Shabbos morning after kiddush.
?
You are also using <<Zionist>> in a somewhat misleading way.?
These were pre-Herzl days, when something was in the air, some stirring to
return to Eretz Yisrael, but not the secular or even Mizrachi Zionism we
know today.
?
The journals the Netziv read were a little on the modern side,
moderate-charedi, showing an interest in worldly matters, but they were
definitely Orthodox.? However, the use of words like modern, worldly,
charedi, Orthodox and Zionist is anachronistic.? Those terms weren't used
in the 19th century as they are today.? Nineteenth century Europe was not
21st century America.? Yechiel Brill, the editor and publisher of the
Levanon, was a <<maskil>> only in the loosest sense of having
worldly interests and being a little bit on the modern side of the frum
spectrum, but he was anti-Haskalah and anti-Reform.??
?
I don't know why you want to paint the Netziv as an avid consumer of secular newspapers.? That is just not accurate.
?
Now, Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:
?
>> I have never looked at these papers so I have no idea what their content
>>is like.

>>If their content was anything like what today's so-called Torah
>>publications (Yated, HaModiya, etc) are like, much or even most of their
>>content was similar to what any other newspaper put out. These papers all
>>write about the daily news with some restrictions on sexual content. In
>>articles. But these articles are definitely the minority of the content.

>>So if the papers that the Netziv read were anything like today's papers,
>>he read mainly the news and in addition maybe some other Torah-based
>>content.

Since these journals were published more than a century ago, no one alive
today has seen these papers except for a few academic researchers with
access to old library archives.? They were weeklies and even though they
did carry some news, they were more like today's intellectual journals of
opinion, with long articles discussing the issues of the day from a
philosophical, hashkafic point of view.? The letters to the editor could be
long, weighty essays themselves.? You can't really compare them to Hamodia
or Yated.? They were more like an Orthodox version of today's _Commentary_
magazine, but with more flame-throwing.
?
The main thing they had in common with today's charedi newspapers is that
they did not carry pictures of women.? But then again, they did not carry
pictures of men, either. No pictures of anything!? Just pages and pages of
words.? ?:)
?
Ah, I remind myself of that song from <<My Fair Lady>>??
?
Words Words Words
I'm so sick of words
I get words all day through
First from him, now from you
Is that all you blighters can do
?
All of us here are busy talking about things we have never seen, like the far side of the moon.
?
?
?
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
?
=============
?
______________________________
?
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Message: 6
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 09:28:59 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] Kol Koreh that there is a chiyuv to vaccinate

```
This was printed in todays Yated (Hebrew)

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qynq0iYqyiE/W-FCVx_j-qI/AAAAAAAAA3I/QVXYkXfn4z8iGD8Z3CWVIqXk6xzmQR_AwCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_9270.jpg

Signed by a number of very promininet Israeli Poskim
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Message: 7
From: Moshe Y. Gluck
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 08:10:10 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kol Koreh that there is a chiyuv to vaccinate

```
From: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
Sent: November 6, 2018 5:37 AM
Cc: marty.bl...@gmail.com

This was printed in todays Yated (Hebrew)
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qynq0iYqyiE/W-FCVx_j-qI/AAAAAAAAA3I/QVXYkXfn4z8iGD8Z3CWVIqXk6xzmQR_AwCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_9270.jpg
Signed by a number of very promininet Israeli Poskim

It's interesting that R' Moshe Sternbuch's note only speaks about the
obligation of the father to vaccinate. Chinuch is on the father, if I'm
not mistaken. But shouldn't vaccination be sort of like m'nias hezek
and obligatory on both parents?
KT
MYG
Sent via the BlackBerry Hub for Android

```

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Message: 8
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 20:35:51 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kol Koreh that there is a chiyuv to vaccinate

```
On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, Moshe Y. Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's interesting that R' Moshe Sternbuch's note only speaks about the
> obligation of the father to vaccinate. Chinuch is on the father, if I'm not
> mistaken. But shouldn't vaccination be sort of like m'nias hezek and
> obligatory on both parents?
>
> I didn?t understand this point either as this is not an inyan of chinuch
but pikuach nefesh which would apply to the mother also.
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