Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 77

Mon, 02 Jul 2018

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Richard Fiedler
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 05:14:45 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz


The previous month the Molad of Sivan was Tuesday, 5:21 AM and 6 chalakim,
which is 11 hours and 384 chalakim. That is 21 minutes times 18 chalakim
per minute plus 6 chalakim.

From the Rambam this we know to get the next month we add 29 days 12 hours
and 793 chalakim. Thus we would get Wednesday, 23 hours and 1,177 chalakim.
There are 1080 chalakim in an hour so we would restate this as Thursday, 0
hours, and 97 chalakim.

Changing from Wednesday to Thursday is of course done at sunset which in this case happened at 6:45 PM Jerusalem Standard Time.
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Message: 2
From: Toby Katz
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 00:21:53 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Was Bil'am Jewish?



From: Akiva Miller <akivagmil...@gmail.com>


>>? Naaah, of course he was not Jewish. The subject line was just to get
your attention. But then again....

I would not have surprised me if Bil'am had said, "I can't do what my
god doesn't let me do." After all, religious people of *any* religion
generally refrain from going against the will of their god. Likewise,
I would not have been surprised if he said, "I can't do what Hashem
doesn't let me do." .....But Bil'am didn't say either of
those things.
.

What Bil'am said was, "I can't do what HASHEM MY GOD doesn't let me
do." (B'midbar 22:18) I was very surprised by this phrase. ....?in this
pasuk, we see that Bil'am goes beyond accepting Hashem as *a* god -- he
accepts Him as "my God." ...



Akiva Miller

>>>>
?
?
My brother, Heshy Bulman, based on RSRH, understands Bilam to be boastful
and arrogant -- saying to the nobles and bigshots who are in attendance, in
effect, <<I have G-d in my pocket, He does my bidding, He is my G-d
and does what I want Him to do.>>??
?
When Bilam said <<I can't go with you because G-d doesn't let
me>> he intended and his listeners understood him to be saying,
<<Unless you give me a lot more honor and a lot more money, I won't
go with you.>>? This is Rashi, but Hirsch's additional insight is
that Bilam actually believed he was in control.? ?
?
?
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
?
=============
?
______________________________
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Message: 3
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:40:28 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz


On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 11:59 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> On 01/07/18 13:39, Richard Fiedler via Avodah wrote:
>
>>
>> In other shuls the Molad was announced as _*Thursday*_, 0 hours and 97
>> chalakim. Such is the traditional way the Molad was announced. Minutes are
>> not used. >
>> Now I doubt that many would say  Elu v?Elu here. One of these
>> announcements was wrong.
>>
>
> Your entire discourse about sunset is irrelevant.  Sunset has absolutely
> nothing to do with *any* calculation of the molad.   The period between one
> molad and the next is always the same, therefore it should be obvious that
> there are no variable factors in its calculation, such as sunset.  The
> "day" for the calculation as the sources give it  (starting with Molad
> BaHaRaD) begins *not* at sunset but at precisely 6:00 PM. But 6:00 PM
> real time, not Standard Time, which is an invention of the US railroads.


Today I Learned that this is a 2x2 mahloket. RZS's "The period between one
molad and the next is always the same" and "the 'day' ... begins ... at
precisely 6:00pm" is the shita of the Levush (end of OH 428. All sources
quoted from the Itim LaBina luah, I haven't had time to check them inside).
There is then a sub-mahloket what we mean by "6:00 pm" -- is it 6 hours
after a mean "noon" which is the same all year around (shita of R Yona
Merzbach) , or 6 hours after astronomical noon on that particular day
(shita of R YM Tokaczinsky)?

According to RZS's statement "The period between one molad and the next is
always the same, therefore it should be obvious that there are no variable
factors in its calculation", we would say the first. But then we would not
always arrive at 6:pm "real time"! (Assuming that "real time" means
"sundial time", rather than "local mean time"). And maybe it's not so
obvious that the period is always halachically the same. Astronomically it
certainly isn't always the same -- even before the molad got longer,
29:12:793 was only an average figure.

Going back to the top-level mahloket, there are rishonim that go even
further in making the halachic molad a variable period. The Tosefot haRosh,
(Berachot 3b s.v. Keivan) and the Tashbetz (I:109) say that hour 0 of
"molad time" is always sunset. RRF's "as a real time ... I would state this
in Israel Summer time of 7:50 PM and 7 chalakim" fits this shita.

But here again there is a sub-mahloket on the calculation of the hours and
halakim: according to the Rosh and the second opinion in the Tashbetz we
use the same sha`ot zemaniot that we use for all other halachic times: 12
equal hours from sunset to sunrise, and 12 differently equal hours from
sunrise to sunset. According to the first opinion in the Tashbetz we use 24
equal hours, starting from sunset, and this is followed by the Mahatzit
Hashekela and the Eliyahu Zuta.

For this Tammuz, there isn't much difference between the second two
sub-shitot, but next month the difference is considerable: molad Av is at
12 hours 890 halakim, or 6:49 am, 8 halakim. By the first shita this
translates to 6:40am; by the second to 8:36, almost two hours difference!
(Again, all this is copied from Itim LaBina, I haven't attempted to verify
the calculations).

Personally I found all this very surprising, since like Zev, I had always
thought that the whole molad calculation system was based on its own time
framework with a rigid constant period of 29:12:793 between one molad and
the next, a rigid cycle of years of 12 months and years of 13 months, and
no variable factors.
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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 00:05:06 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz


On 01/07/18 22:56, Richard Fiedler wrote:
> I don?t think we need to get into a semantic argument. This is a list in 
> English. We should all agree that a day in a Hebrew discussion begins 
> with sunset.

No, it does not.  When you agree to meet someone at 10PM on Sunday you 
do not mean motzoei shabbos, you mean Sunday night, or leyom Sheni. If 
you show up on motzoei shabbos the other person will not be there.  If 
you announce in English "The molad will be on Thursday at 7pm" everyone 
understands you to mean Thursday evening, not Wednesday evening.  That 
is a simple fact.  The same would be true if the announcement were in 
Yiddish or even Hebrew.


> 
> On the website of Beit El Yeshiva Center, https://www.yeshiva.co/calendar/moladot,
> it states for Zman HaMolad:
> 
> "the Molad of Month Tammuz
> will be on on the Night of Thursday
> 0 hours and 97 parts 
> at 18:05, and7 parts"

That is just poor English on the part of whoever programmed the page. 
It is a mistranslation of "leil chamishi", or "or leyom chamishi", which 
means *Wednesday* night.  It's just as wrong as those amusing 
mistranslations we pass around such as "clean for fear of foreskin".

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper



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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 01:52:00 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz


On 02/07/18 00:21, Richard Fiedler wrote:
> With all due respect I believe the real error comes from the non-traditional use of minutes into the system.

Since when is it not traditional?  This is how people have been telling 
time for centuries.  And I do not accept, without evidence, your 
assertion that there are many shuls where the molad is announced in the 
antique style where midnight is referred to as the sixth hour.  Which 
shuls do this, exactly?


> 6:05 PM when sunset is 6:45 PM implies the event happened on the
> previous day before sunset.
No, it does not.  You are arguing a ridiculous position that you 
yourself do not really beleive; if you have an appointment on Wednesday 
at 6 you know exactly when that is, regardless of whether it's summer or 
winter.  Not once will you mistakenly show up a day early.



> Zero hours and 97 chalakim implies the event happened after the
> start of the next day, i.e. after sunset.

That is completely wrong.  Sunset is irrelevant to the time of the 
molad.  The molad is calculated on a 24-hour clock, so the "zeroth hour" 
is 6:00 PM, not sunset.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper



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Message: 6
From: Richard Fiedler
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 05:56:38 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz


I don?t think we need to get into a semantic argument. This is a list in English. We should all agree that a day in a Hebrew discussion begins with sunset.


On the website of Beit El Yeshiva Center, https://www.yeshiva.co/calendar/moladot
<https://www.yeshiva.co/calendar/moladot>,
it states for Zman HaMolad:

"the Molad of Month Tammuz
will be on on the Night of Thursday
0 hours and 97 parts 
at 18:05, and7 parts"



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Message: 7
From: Richard Fiedler
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 07:21:22 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz


With all due respect I believe the real error comes from the
non-traditional use of minutes into the system. 6:05 PM when sunset is 6:45
PM implies the event happened on the previous day before sunset. 

Zero hours and 97 chalakim implies the event happened after the start of the next day, i.e. after sunset.





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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 22:40:36 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz


On 01/07/18 22:14, Richard Fiedler wrote:
> The previous month the Molad of Sivan was Tuesday, 5:21 AM and 6 
> chalakim, which is 11 hours and 384 chalakim. That is 21 minutes times 
> 18 chalakim per minute plus 6 chalakim.
> 
>  From the Rambam this we know to get the next month we add 29 days 12 
> hours and 793 chalakim. Thus we would get Wednesday, 23 hours and 1,177 
> chalakim. There are 1080 chalakim in an hour so we would restate this as 
> *_Thursday_*, 0 hours, and 97 chalakim.


> Changing from Wednesday to Thursday is of course done at sunset which in 
> this case happened at 6:45 PM Jerusalem Standard Time.

No, it does not.  Wednesday and Thursday are English words referring to 
24-hour periods beginning and ending at midnight.  "Revi'i" and 
"Chamishi", in this context, are Ivrit words for exactly the same thing. 
  "Leil Chamishi" or "Or Leyom Chamishi", however, refer to Wednesday 
evening, and in this context are appropriate for that time of day 
regardless of when the sun set.

However, it's ironic that you raised the topic of errors in the 
announcement of this month's molad, because in many Chabad shuls it was 
announced as "Thursday 6:05:7 PM", which is just a blatant error, caused 
by a typo in the chart printed in some editions of the Tehilas Hashem 
siddur, where it is listed as "Yom H, Sha'ah 6 achh"tz, 5 dakot, ve7 
chalakim".  There's no complicated explanation, it's just a typo.

This is the first time, however, that I've ever heard of shuls where the 
molad is announced on a clock beginning at 6PM, and with the hour not 
broken up into minutes.  Is that really common?  And do more than 5% of 
those who hear it understand that they must deduct 6 hours in their 
heads from what is announced?  It just seems pointlessly awkward, merely 
to avoid using the timekeeping system we *all* use without the slightest 
compunction in the rest of our lives.



-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper



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Message: 9
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:43:09 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 5:56 AM, Richard Fiedler via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> On the website of Beit El Yeshiva Center, https://www.yeshiva.
> co/calendar/moladot, it states for Zman HaMolad:
>
> "the Molad of Month Tammuz
> will be on on the Night of Thursday
> 0 hours and 97 parts
> at 18:05, and7 parts"
>

They're not wrong, but their use of language is rather confusing. "Night of
Thursday" is an over-literal translation of "Or leyom hamishi", which
nobody who doesn't know the Hebrew expression would understand. I suppose
we should be thankful they didn't translate it "Light of Thursday" ;-)
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:07:40 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz


I am wondering if calling 6pm or sunset "zero hours" when announcing
the molad rather than 6pm / 1800 is an Edot haMizrach thing.

The Gra shul has (had?) a clock that ran on the old Ottoman system
"Alaturca", and someone set the clock to 6 every evening at sheqi'ah.
Meaning that from the first day of summer through the first day of winter,
when sunset is slightly before the end of 24 hours, Yom Revi'i could
have no 5:59pm. Meanwhile, in the other half of the year, when days are
getting shorter, one could have 6:01pm Or laYom Revi'i, 24 hours later
6:01pm Yom Revi'i, and then 6pm Or laYom Chamishi.

Every shul I know of use Western hours. But that's entirely Ashkenazi
data.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:39:29 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz


On 02/07/18 10:07, Micha Berger wrote:
> I am wondering if calling 6pm or sunset "zero hours" when announcing
> the molad rather than 6pm / 1800 is an Edot haMizrach thing.
> 
> The Gra shul has (had?) a clock that ran on the old Ottoman system
> "Alaturca", and someone set the clock to 6 every evening at sheqi'ah.

But even they set it at 6, not at 12.  The convention of starting the 
numbering at midnight penetrated even the Ottoman lands.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper



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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:51:41 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Was Bil'am Jewish?


On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 12:21:53AM -0400, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote:
: My brother, Heshy Bulman, based on RSRH, understands Bilam to be
: boastful and arrogant -- saying to the nobles and bigshots who are in
: attendance, in effect, <<I have G-d in my pocket, He does my bidding,
: He is my G-d and does what I want Him to do.>>

Perhaps, but RAM's point stands that Bil'am's G-d is indeed G-d,
hyphen and all.

But as someone who says E-lokei Neshamah and E-lokai Netzor, I am
uncomfortable going too far reading into Bil'am's wording. Your brother
and RSRH are interpreting how Bil'am meant knowing what we know of Bil'am,
not deriving new information about Bil'am from his use of the expression.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht



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Message: 13
From: M Cohen
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:07:20 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] updated HaRav Shlomo Miller Q&A available


updated HaRav Shlomo Miller Q&A available is available

1767 short Q & As

in English on subjects across the rainbow

 

Download here, or email me offline

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7zdxbwerjhd3eqd/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2
0all.doc?dl=0

 

KT, Mordechai Cohen

 





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