Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 10

Mon, 22 Jan 2018

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Chaim Tatel
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:30:48 -0800
Re: [Avodah] Are Vegan Restaurants Kosher?

In our metropolitan area, there are currently two (dairy) vegetarian
restaurants (one Indian and one Chinese). We also have a vegan restaurant

I was the mashgiach for all of these for many years.

Several issues:

1)       Staff would bring in food from home and try to cook it in the
kosher utensils. One of our certified restaurants lost their cert over this.

2)       BUGS in the veggies. Especially cabbage. Several times, I had to
get the owner to send the whole case back and try again.

3)       In one case, I spent an entire week preparing a restaurant for
kosher certification. This included cleaning equipment, kashering where
necessary, replacing other items that could not be kashered, and verifying
kashrut of the ingredients. There was one ingredient that the owner said
was ?critical? to her business. We contacted various kashrut experts who
certify products in Asia, and were unable to verify the kashrut of this
ingredient. After a very long, hard week, the owner of the restaurant, head
of our Vaad, and I had a meeting. No one could change their position, so we
ended up not certifying the place. The owner did thank me for the cleaning
job I did.

Meanwhile, Rabbi Akiva Miller wrote:

>Take Chalav Yisrael, for example. Milk is a consumer product which is
ostensibly made of one single, simple, kosher ingredient, and in the
pre-pasteurization era it wasn't even cooked. But because of the
possibility of adulteration, Chazal saw fit to require hashgacha of
that single-ingredient product. Even in situations where Torah Law
would allow us to rely on the probability that a given container of
milk was kosher, Chazal said we *can't* rely on it.>

In Europe, there is a move on to use donkey milk:

Chazal were not kidding when they prohibited ?Chalav Akum.?

Domori Donkey Milk Chocolate


This milk chocolate bar is infused with donkey milk powder.

Interesting fact about donkey milk: It is the closest to human milk for
nutritional values and chemical features. It has les fats and more lactose
than any other milk. Cleopatra used to bathe in donkey milk to preserve her
legendary beauty.

And here:


Swiss choc master creates donkey's milk chocolate

21 November 2016

A chocolate maker in Morges, in the canton of Vaud, has produced the
country's first ever chocolate made from donkey's milk, thought to be
suitable for people who are allergic to cow's milk.

G?rard Fornerod created the speciality chocolate in collaboration with the
Eurolactis society, also based in Morges, which produces cosmetics and
other products using donkey's milk.

In 2014 Pierluigi Orunesu, founder of Eurolactis, hit the news when he
travelled to the Vatican to present his products to Pope Francis, who
revealed that he was fed donkey's milk as a child growing up in Argentina.

?When he returned Pierluigi suggested that I make recipes with his product.
I started to make pastries and the result was really good,? Fornerod told
Le Tribune de Gen?ve on Sunday.

Wanting to create a product with a longer shelf life, Fornerod soon
developed a donkey's milk chocolate which is the first such product in

Donkey's milk is said to be the closest animal milk to human breast milk.
Rich in lactose and fatty acids and lower in fat than other milks, it is
thought to boost the immune system and may be suitable for those who are
allergic to cow's milk.

The ancient Greeks and Egyptians considered it an elixir, and Cleopatra
famously bathed in the stuff.

In 2013 the UN Food and Agriculture Organization said donkey's milk has
?particular nutritional benefits? since its proteins may make them more
suitable for people who are allergic to cows' milk.

Speaking to The Local on Monday, Orunesu said he set up Eurolactis since
there was plenty of demand for donkey's milk products but very little on
the market.

?It's the closest milk to mother's milk. And that's very good for all
problems relating to allergies and for nutrition,? he said.

The new donkey's milk chocolate is a first in Switzerland since all
chocolate here is made from cow's milk, he said.

?So it's a way of innovating, and above all, it brings a lightness to the
chocolate that cow's milk does not have,? he added.

Orunesu is confident there is a market for donkey's milk chocolate,
particularly among those who are allergic to cow's milk.

?Not only in Switzerland. In the modern world between four and five
percent  have allergies and that's on the rise.?

However, there aren't actually many donkey's milk producers in Switzerland.
Though Eurolactis was created in Switzerland, most of the milk comes from
Italy, he said.

Chaim Tatel
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Message: 2
From: David Havin
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:27:57 +1100
[Avodah] Kever Avos

I want to know the parameters of *kever avos*. Is it satisfied by burial:

   - Only immediately adjacent to parents;
   - Nearby parents but with intervening plots;
   - Merely in the same cemetery.

Rav Elyashiv in *Sefer Tziyunei Halachah*, *Hilchot Aveilut* (Ben Tzion
Ha-Kohen Kook, 5776, *Machon Tziyunei Halachah*) pp 116 especially footnote
5 and 118 appears to require burial immediately adjacent to parents.

Is anyone aware of differing opinions in the responsa literature? To my
surprise, I could not find anything in the index to *Igros Moshe*.

David Havin
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Message: 3
From: Sholom Simon
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 11:20:47 -0500
[Avodah] Paro / Melech Mitzrayim

Sometime we read "Paro," sometimes we read "Melech Mitzrayim", and 
sometimes (e.g., the end of the first aliyah in Beshalach) we read 
"Paro Melech Mitzrayim."

Is there a rhyme or reason for the various usages?

Shavua tov!

-- Sholom

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Message: 4
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 23:01:48 +0000
[Avodah] Chalav Yisrael: Required or Recommended?

Please listen to the talk at


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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 19:00:10 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Chalav Yisrael: Required or Recommended?

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 11:01:48PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: Please listen to the talk at
: https://goo.gl/atKfcN

I didn't yet, but I do have a blog post on the subject of chalav yisrael
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/chalav-yisrael>. First, a discplaimer, because
I'm about to cite R' Moshe and I don't want to leave a false impression:

   Colloquially, discussions of the permissibility of drinking USFDA milk
   tend to start with citing the Igeros Moshe, as though the  norm  of
   drinking it originated with Rav Moshe's (RMF) responsa on the subject.
   But this isn't quite fair. Rather, most American Jews were already
   drinking what he called chalav hacompanies (company milk, USFDA
   approved) well before RMF arrived in the US. They had rabbanim who had
   already ruled it was permissible, such as R' Dov Revel, R' Yisrael
   Avraham Abba Krieger, (among other greats of early 20^th century
   American Judaism whom time has forgotten because the huge waves of
   post-War immigrants to the US never met them) R' Breuer, R' Moshe
   Soloveitchik and his son R' JB Soloveitchik. In the early days of
   Lakewood they served regular milk and Breakstone cottage cheese. Yes,
   that stopped when CY became more readily available, but obviously the
   yeshiva wouldn't have served it had R' Aharon Kotler believed CY was
   mandatory. (They could have sent someone to a nearby farm -- Lakewood
   was near farmland back then.)

   Then there were those who didn't permit ...

Now, for the relevant quote:

   Also, it's clear Rav Moshe's language shifted as chalav Yisrael (CY)
   became more available, in the earliest responsum treating CY as a
   stringency above the baseline (Igeros Moshe YD 1:47-49), the middle
   more equivocal (2:31,35) and the latest (4:5) more like not insisting
   on CY being a leniency. However, Rebbetzin Feinstein did not observe
   chalav yisrael, and it is well known in their community that Rav Dovid
   Feinstein to this day drinks "chalav hacompanies". So I wouldn't read
   that much into the change in language, if it didn't impact what he told
   his own family! In practice, he treated CY as a personal stringency,
   even to his last day.

Discussion of CY (the Peri Chadash vs the Chasam Sofer onward, emphasis on
AhS), elided.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef

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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 21:10:26 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Importance of Secular Studies for Torah Studies

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 05:28:31AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: > The following letter appears on pages 94 - 95 of this week's Flatbush
: > Jewish Journal.
: Which imho is a long way of saying that the dichotomy between religious
: and secular studies in many ways is a false one....

I think that overstates it. One can't follow the Torah without knowing
the real world to which to apply it. But one is the goal, and the other,
the means.

To quote the Tzitz Eliezer (from Harav Shimshon Rephael Hirsch: Mishnaso
    The Torah, according to Rav Hirsch, is the force that gives
    form. Form, to Aristotle's thought, means a thing's essential nature
    -- in distinction to the substance from which it is embodied. Derech
    Eretz is merely the matter on which Torah works.

The function is determined by Torah. The essence is Torah. Secular
studies allow us to apply that Torah to more of the world. A means.

Tirau baTov!

Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 21:00:20 -0500
Re: [Avodah] New Cancer Treatment

On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 02:32:45PM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: RHS in his sefer (Eretz Hatzvi) points out...
: The Gemara in Yevamos 16b brings the opinion that eved v'akum haba al bas
: yisrael havlad mamzer...
: 1. Even though there is no bias issur since kiddushin are not tofsin it
: creates mamzerus.
: 2. A Goy and a Jewish woman do not create a mamzer min hatorah only
: midrabbanan

Seems to me the two opinions revolve around the kelal that only an issur
kareis can create a mamzer. (Since we hold like the chakhamim over R'

Qidushin are tofesin between two people for whom relations would be a
lav, whereas not between two people for whom relations would always be
an issur kareis. "Always" to exclude a chupas nidah, qidushin tofesin
because their relations would be permissible at some later point.

So, I would suggest that position 1 is saying that the whole question of
kareis was really just a stand-in for qiddushin tofesin, and therefore
a non-Jewish father would be in the same boat. Whereas position 2 takes
the issur qareis as the actual criterion.

: If we apply these 2 opinions to IVF, according to the first answer since
: kiddushin are not tofsin (since she is married) the child would be a mamzer
: even though there was no bias issur....

Can we extrapolate from "no bi'as issur" to no bi'ah?

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 21:03:43 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Should One Go To Shul Today?

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 11:57:44AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Mishna Brura 90:52 says:
: "See the previous seif katan, and someone sitting at home has the
: halacha of going out of his way. Therefore, one who lives in a
: settlement, within a mil of where they pray with ten, he has to go
: there every day in the morning to pray with ten. But not in the
: evening, because one does not have to go on the road at night for the
: sake of minyan. And this se'if is an open rebuke to those men who are
: in the city and are too lazy to go to shul to daven mincha/maariv."
: Why does the MB make an exception for "the evening, because one does
: not have to go on the road at night for the sake of minyan"?...

Since his evening is about a minchah-maariv pair, perhaps his concern
is tefilah betzibur for minchah? How can you use this MB to derive anything
about maariv betzibur?

: I would also note that the above is the MB. The Aruch Hashulchan 90:20
: writes: "One who lives in a yishuv/settlement, within a mil of a place
: where they pray with ten, is obligated to go, every day, morning and
: evening, to pray b'tzibur." The AhS seems to be stricter in two ways...

But also, since there are only two possible trips to shul, RYME is also
writing about how far to travel to a minchah-maariv pair. For which
minchah alone would be sufficient motive. It says nothing about maariv.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 21:53:16 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Paro / Melech Mitzrayim

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 11:20:47AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
: Sometime we read "Paro," sometimes we read "Melech Mitzrayim", and
: sometimes (e.g., the end of the first aliyah in Beshalach) we read
: "Paro Melech Mitzrayim."

: Is there a rhyme or reason for the various usages?

I noticed it's Melekh Mitzrayim who needs to entice the masses to back
his plan "hava nischakma lo".

Whereas it's Par'oh who hides his trips to the men's room.

I think the Torah uses one to refer to the king of Mitzrayim when he's
acting like a melekh, and the other when he's acting like the son of Ra
who could just declare things as a moshel.

Etymologically, Par'oh means "house + big", and refers to the current
holder of the dynasty more than the person in-and-of itself. And the
whole "son of Ra" thing is a claim about the origins of the royal house,
not the individual.

But I didn't ever chase down every usage to check this idea.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 22:45:50 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Chalav Yisrael: Required or Recommended?

On 21/01/18 19:00, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Also, it's clear Rav Moshe's language shifted as chalav Yisrael (CY)
>     became more available, in the earliest responsum treating CY as a
>     stringency above the baseline (Igeros Moshe YD 1:47-49), the middle
>     more equivocal (2:31,35) and the latest (4:5) more like not insisting
>     on CY being a leniency.

You're starting one siman too late.  Any survey of RMF's shita has to 
start with siman 46, where he expresses astonishment at the asker's 
expression "for those who are careful with stam milk that comes from 
nochrim" and explicitly writes that "all Ashkenazi Jews" pasken like the 
Chasam Sofer and not like the Radvaz and Pri Chodosh.  So the baseline 
is that CY is an obligation, not a hiddur, but commercial milk is not 
included in the gezera, as he goes on to explain in the next three simanim.

Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper


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