Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 115

Wed, 27 Sep 2017

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 11:45:50 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] oseh hashalom


On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:30:27AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 19/09/17 16:33, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
: >I find it a bit odd to change the nusach of something so important
: >as kaddish because of gematria.  Do we see that elsewhere?  (Or,
: >are their other reasons I am missing?)

: Nusach Hatefilah, especially Nusach Ashkenaz, was designed in the
: first place largely on the basis of gematrias and word and letter
: counts.

At least both the Chassidei Ashkenaz and the Tur held it was.

There is no evidence of this line of thought any closer to the actual
start of Nusach Ashkenaz. And a number of the Tur's word counts
are dependent on flavor of Nusach Ashkenaz. Could well be that the
significance is itself part of a bigger machloqes. They could also be
taken as post-facto kavvanos, a way keep in mind a pasuq that colors
what we mean by the baqashah, rather than causitive.

It is interesting to me that the violation of word count gematrios in
Nusach Ashkenaz is largely among Chassidim, who we culturally associate
as the community most likely to deal in such remez. Except perhaps for
Chida and Ben Ish Hai influenced Sepharadim, but they didn't have a
nusach that made such claims to ask why they would choose to leave it.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 2
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 12:38:24 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Naming Right?


Please take a shot at  reconciling this statement with current practice, and what HKB"H wants from us:
Rama Y"D 249:13 (my free translation) - In any event one shouldn't glorify
oneself with the charity he gives, not only won't he receive reward but he
is even punished and in any event one who dedicates an item to charity is
permitted to write his name on it to be a memorial for (to?) him and it is
worthy to do so (Taz - so the community cannot switch its use).

GCT
Joel Rich

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Message: 3
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 12:30:37 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Naming Right?


On 25/09/17 08:38, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Please take a shot at  reconciling this statement with current practice, 
> and what HKB?H wants from us:
> Rama Y?D 249:13 (my free translation) ? In any event one shouldn?t 
> glorify oneself with the charity he gives, not only won?t he receive 
> reward but he is even punished and in any event one who dedicates an 
> item to charity is permitted to write his name on it to be a memorial 
> for (to?) him and it is worthy to do so (Taz ? so the community cannot 
> switch its use).

Where's the contradiction?   People shouldn't brag about their 
donations; who does?   But it's totally OK to put ones name on the item 
donated; so plaques and building names are fine.  It's also completely 
proper, of course, for a mosad to honor a donor -- yehalelcha zar velo 
ficha.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all



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Message: 4
From: Lisa Liel
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 20:19:20 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] oseh hashalom


We change "min kol" to "mikol" to make up for the addition of the extra 
"l'eila".? So that the word count stays the same.? So yes, we see this 
kind of thing everywhere, including kaddish.

Lisa

On 9/19/2017 11:33 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
>
> I find it a bit odd to change the nusach of something so important as 
> kaddish because of gematria.? Do we see that elsewhere?? (Or, are 
> their other reasons I am missing?)


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Message: 5
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 18:30:20 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Naming Right?


> Rama Y"D 249:13 (my free translation) - In any event one shouldn't 
> glorify oneself with the charity he gives, not only won't he receive 
> reward but he is even punished and in any event one who dedicates an 
> item to charity is permitted to write his name on it to be a memorial 
> for (to?) him and it is worthy to do so (Taz - so the community cannot 
> switch its use).

Where's the contradiction?   People shouldn't brag about their 
donations; who does?   But it's totally OK to put ones name on the item 
donated; so plaques and building names are fine.  It's also completely 
proper, of course, for a mosad to honor a donor -- yehalelcha zar velo 
ficha.

-- 
I leave it to the readers to project if people put a name on as a form of bragging (separate question - is it intent or what observer's perceive that counts?)
It is permitted but is it the  preference of HKB"H especially if the item is not in danger of being switched in use?
GCT
Joel Rich
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 14:29:02 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] time as a spiral


On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 02:48:37PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
: An Aish article notes:
:> The Jewish model of time is a spiral...

: There are lots of examples of this (Lot served matza, Rashi says it
: was Pesach, etc.).  Moed meets "meeting" -- where we meet H', etc.
: The 10th of Tishrei has "forgiveness" somehow embedded in that time
: (which is why H' forgave us on that day), etc.

: I've also been told: there's no source for this notion in Chazal.

There is no source, but it's a pretty compelling conclusion given
Chazal's description of mo'eid, or chayav kol adam lir'os/lehar'os es
atzmo repeating yetzi'as Mitzrayim annually OT1H, and yet OTOH speaking of
history as inexorably running from Adam to the messianic era (and beyond).

We might be the first generation consciously aware enough of the issue
to think about our use of both language that implies circular time and
that of linear time to want to make a synthesis "helical time".

(True YU alumni would insist there is no helical time. Meaning comes from
the tension of the dialectic; there is no syntheis. <grin>)


I don't question the value of lomdus, even though it is utilizing patterns
in halakhah or halachic dialectic that weren't made explicit. Yes, that
creates a change of error, but when the explanation is strong enough,
do we reject the whole concept because the Rambam never spoke about
gavra vs cheftza on topics other than oaths?

Think how much hashkafah, or specifically Qabbalah, is drawn from just
this kind of finding a theory to explain existing statements. This
helical time is typical.

So, is it a modern chiddush? That isn't a boolean question... to the
extent you find this intepretation muchrach, it's inherent in what
came bafore. And the the extent you don't, v.v.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore



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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 14:58:39 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Naming Right?


On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 06:30:20PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
:>> Rama Y"D 249:13 (my free translation) - In any event one shouldn't 
:>> glorify oneself with the charity he gives...

:> Where's the contradiction?   People shouldn't brag about their 
:> donations; who does?   But it's totally OK to put ones name on the item 
:> donated...

...
: It is permitted but is it the preference of HKB"H especially if the
: item is not in danger of being switched in use?

I am personally bothered when there is so much text on the paroches or
cloth on the bimah (term?) that it detracts from the aesthetics. I am
also bothered when more space is spent naming the donors than naming
and perhaps lauding the person in whose memory the donation was given.
That said...

I think the consensus is that things have fallen to the point that we
have two offsetting values that outweigh this ill:

1- When the choice is between collecting multiples more money with giving
out honors vs operating on a shoestring and having to cut corners by
only taking more purely motivated donations, the extra tzedaqah given
is a mitzvah that outweights the alternative.

2- Even someone who has pure motives and wants to give quietly is living
in a society that will respond positively if his donation is made public
and influences the community. Peer pressure isn't just for teenagers.

I think it's parallel to choosing chalitzah as a first choice. It's clear
from the pasuq and the content of the ritual that chalitzah is something
that in the ideal no one should be encouraged to choose. But as Abba
Shaul noted, we don't live in that ideal world, and what was second-rate
has become (centuries later) mandatory practice.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 15:02:53 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kiddush Levana on Motzai Tisha B???av


On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 06:19:27PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: I'm not aware of any advantage in saying Kiddush Levana with a minyan,
: as compared to without a minyan...

We make a point of demonstrating communal unity in the middle. "Shalom
Aleikhem!" Not speaking halachically, as you aren't obligated to greet 9
men, or even really greet anyone. But still... Aside from Zev's example
of getting one more qaddish, which is a nice but incidental advantage,
it seems to me that QL itself leans toward being a tzibur thing.

GCT!
-Micha



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Message: 9
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 07:34:30 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kiddush Levana on Motzai Tisha B?av


If the reason is z'rizin is the reason, than why not do it on the 4th of 
Av? Why let the aveilut override the tefila? (similar to saying a 
shechiyanu on new fruit during sefirat ha-omer; don't wait until Shabbat).

Ben

On 9/19/2017 12:19 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I thought that we say it Motzaei
> Tisha B'Av as a general z'rizin makdimin thing, or because only a few
> days are left and we fear running out of time.





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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 01:09:26 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Naming Right?


On 25/09/17 14:58, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> cloth on the bimah (term?)

mappah.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all



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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 06:39:33 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kiddush Levana on Motzai Tisha B?av


On 26/09/17 01:34, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> If the reason is z'rizin is the reason, than why not do it on the 4th of 
> Av? Why let the aveilut override the tefila? (similar to saying a 
> shechiyanu on new fruit during sefirat ha-omer; don't wait until Shabbat).

Not everyone does that, in fact some don't even say it on Shabbat, and 
wait until Shavuot.  So zrizin doesn't necessarily override avelut. 
Also many don't do kidush levana until after 7 days from the molad, by 
which time we're into the deeper avelut.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all



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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:45:41 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kiddush Levana on Motzai Tisha B?av


On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 07:34:30AM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: If the reason is z'rizin is the reason, than why not do it on the
: 4th of Av? Why let the aveilut override the tefila? ...

I am confused. Isn't the implication simply that all else being equal,
do it earlier because zerizin, but aveilus is sufficient for not
considering all else equal?

Why does zerizus being applicable mean that it is necessarily the most
urgent halachic principle coming into play?

GCT!
-Micha



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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 14:54:12 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Starbucks coffee and nosein ta'am


Over on Areivim, we were yet again discussing the cRc's position that
one should not buy coffee from a full Starbucks store that sells food.

Here's my take, cut-n-pasted from what I posted there.


... There is a lot of ham and bacon at
https://www.starbucks.com/menu/catalog/product?food=hot-breakfast
and poultry at
https://www.starbucks.com/menu/catalog/product?food=sandwiches-
panini-and-wraps

The cRc's statement refers to these in particular
<http://www.crcweb.org/starbucks_overview.php>. It also questions your
assumption of the ubiquitous use of soap:

                         Chicago Rabbinical Council
                        Guide to Starbucks Beverages

                            May 2013 / June 2015

   ...
   As said, Starbucks shops serve many kosher and non-kosher items,
   with the most serious non-kosher item being hot meat sandwiches. The
   standard daily clean-up at Starbucks includes a hot wash of all
   utensils and some parts of that washing are done without soap. This
   clean up process significantly challenges the kosher status of
   the otherwise kosher products and each product must be judged by
   a competent halachic authority. The cRc has made available their
   detailed review and analysis of this topic in the spring 2011
   edition of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society and
   that article can be found below. Click here to read this article.
   <http://www.crcweb.org/Starbucks%20cRc%20Full%20Article%20April%
   202011.pdf>

   The good news is that there are many Starbucks locations that do not
   serve hot meat sandwiches. These are generally the Starbucks kiosks
   which can be defined as a Starbucks location, usually found in a mall,
   retail store, a bus or train station or airport, that does not sell
   hot sandwiches. The cRc is comfortable recommending any drink made from
   kosher ingredients (even though some others use ingredients that may
   not be kosher).

   This list is accurate at this time for stores in the United States
   based on two and a half years of extensive research and consultation
   with the cRc's Av Beth Din, Rav Schwartz, shlit"a....

Personally, I doubt any Starbucks with an A rating from the health
department actually puts dishes in hot water without soap with enough
regularity that you have to worry about the possibility WRT kashrus. And
that is consistent with the lenient majority. We're trying to understand
the cRc's ruling.

There is no derabbanan here[, to justify another poster's invocation
of safeiq derabbanan]. They're saying that the odds of your cup being
washed without soap with a plate that held hot bacon or tereifah chicken
is high enough that one needs to avoid taking that risk. But that's real
nosein ta'am of an issur de'oraisa.


On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:56pm +0300 someone wrote to Areivim, on a discussion
of the cRc's ruling against
: I don't drink coffee at all, so I'm not a frequent Starbucks customer, but
: I suspect that a sandwich like
: https://www.starbucks.com/menu/foo
: d/sandwiches-panini-and-wraps/chicken-blt-salad-sandwich?foodZone=9999
: is probably at least 1/60th chicken or bacon.

The one bit of kashrus I don't "get" is how grossly we overestimate
the size of a taam of something. We require bitul beshishim of the
volume, because this is the only way to guarantee bitul beshishim of the
ta'am? Are we saying that a pot that gained so little taam basar so as
to show the same weight on a food scale may have picked up so much meat
that we should use the volume of the pot to guarantee bitul?

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter



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Message: 14
From: Noam Stadlan
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 15:17:36 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Critique of the OU paper on leadership/ordination


JOFA has published my critique of the paper comissioned by the OU on the
topic of leadership/ordination for women. (I am indebted to some of those
here who helped sharpen arguments  :-)  ). I think I have adequately
illustrated that their position is based on wrong/unproven facts, poor
logic, fuzzy definitions, strained arguments, and inconsistent application
of the rules. Perhaps more importantly, it shows the need to have a
comprehensive and systematic approach to gender and public/leadership.

I am happy to respond to questions, critiques and criticisms.

http://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/sneak-peek-an-analys
is-of-the-ban-on-women-rabbis/

Noam Stadlan
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Message: 15
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 15:38:27 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Tuition Breaks and Tzedaka


On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 10:56:59AM +0200, Arie Folger via Avodah wrote:
:> I know both of the local day schools quote posqim who say one
:> may use maaser money to pay the differential. I am wondering if
:> promoting that pesaq might not backfire among parents who are
:> currently paying part of the differential based on the above reasoning.

: From a chapter in a forthcoming book of mine:
...
: It stands to reason that tuition beyond cost is definitely counted as
: tzedaka, as the whole disagreement regards a father's obligation to his
: minor children disqualifying tution from being considered tzedaka. But
: what's beyond that should reasonably count as tzedaka....

Agreed, but I don't see how it's obvious. Say your handyman is a pious
guy, and rather than not doing business with people who can't afford his
full rate, he charges them less for labor. Also, Rn Handyman isn't so
willing to take the full hit on total income. Since this is a nice guy,
we can assume that if more of the town were wealthier, his usual rate
for someone who can beqoshi stretch the budget would be lower.

Is the difference in salary tzedaqah? Does it make a difference if
Reb Handyman actuall did this accounting and maybe even announced the
resulting differential? Or is a baal melakhah's pay rate money owed,
and such cheshbonos should be irrelevent.

This imaginary scenario was designed to be both parallel and to my mind
a somewhat wild line of reasoning.

1- Once you say that any tuition paid beyond the cost for your child is
indeed tzedaqah, one needs a pesaq about how to apportion group costs
to each individual student. The cost of the class divided by students,
then the cost of school administation divided by the student body? Or
maybe if a teacher is hired as soon as a class would otherwise grow
beyond 25 students, I should be looking at the incremental cost of my
child after the need to start the additional class was caused by someone
else? And then -- could it depend on if I registered late, or before
the number of classes was determined?

And don't get me started on who is paying for resource room staff,
where there are parallels to the above AND the reality that different
kids would be using different amount of the service. So that my kid's 1
hour per week may have been the straw that broke the camel's back in the
decision to get a math specialist, whereas another student's 5 hours of
readin help is with a teacher they needed otherwise. Who pays what?

2- Once you make it tzedaqah, rather than considering tuition as debt,
all could be fine-and-well halachically. And so it can come out of maaser
kesafim. (All the more so because we aren't even sure maaser kesafim is
a din.) And the schools like this, because it frees up maaser money for
people who would otherwise need scholarship.

But the line you're replying to was arguing that there is a downside for
the school as well. As the teshuvah we started from notes -- debt is a
higher priority than tzedaqah. You don't pay maaser out of money owed.
And so, the school is marketing a din that may mean /less/ money for
them than if the halakhah were that the full tuition should be treated as
a debt.

position for a sch

chakhamim don't have to pay city defenses; maybe a good kid who doesn't see
the principal should be considered
: to one school where the rabbinic committee established how much of tuition
: may be counted towards ma'asser (they were even more generous than what we
: are discussing, since it is a poor community).

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What you get by achieving your goals
mi...@aishdas.org        is not as important as
http://www.aishdas.org   what you become by achieving your goals.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Henry David Thoreau



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Message: 16
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 00:47:13 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Starbucks coffee and nosein ta'am


On 26/09/17 14:54, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:

> Personally, I doubt any Starbucks with an A rating from the health
> department actually puts dishes in hot water without soap with enough
> regularity that you have to worry about the possibility WRT kashrus.

They wash in soapy water first, and then in clear water.  The cRc's 
position is that soapy water, which is hotter than yad soledes bo but 
cooler than kashering temp, prevents the transmission of treife taam 
from one keli to another when they are washed together, but it does 
*not* render the treife keli permanently pagum.   The treife keli comes 
out just as treif as it was, so when it's then put into *clean* hot 
water together with the kosher keli the treife taam transfers.



> The one bit of kashrus I don't "get" is how grossly we overestimate
> the size of a taam of something. We require bitul beshishim of the
> volume, because this is the only way to guarantee bitul beshishim of the
> ta'am? Are we saying that a pot that gained so little taam basar so as
> to show the same weight on a food scale may have picked up so much meat
> that we should use the volume of the pot to guarantee bitul?

Halacha seems to take the position that taam has no physical substance 
at all, so it's not surprising that even if it permeates the keli's 
entire structure, which we assume it does, it doesn't add to its mass.

This is also why the bracha on coffee is shehakol, not ha'etz, because 
there is no substance of the coffee bean in the final product; only 
taam, smell, and colour are transferred in the brewing, all of which are 
assumed to have zero mass.  Which makes the existence of instant coffee 
a conundrum, and casts doubt on the practise of saying shehakol also on 
coffee made from instant.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all


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