Volume 35: Number 89
Fri, 07 Jul 2017
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 12:14:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What is the correct way to pronounce Hashem?s
On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 01:18:11PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: From today's OU Halacha Yomis
...
: A. Rav Shlomo Zalman Ehrenreich, HY"D ... "We have
: a tradition in our hands from Sinai, from the mouth of the Almighty,
: that the reading of the honored and awesome name of Hashem is AH -- DOY
: -- NOY (AH-DOE -- NOY or AH-DOW-NOY) using the vowelization of Chataf
: Patach for the Aleph, a Cholam for the Daled and a Kamatz for the Nun..."
First, we know from seifer Shoferim that different shevatim had different
accents, such that Shevet Ephraim (like Litvaks of a much later date)
pronounced as right-dotted shin the same as a sin or samekh.
So how can we talk about a single accent even at Har Sinai?
I therefore assume RSZE Hy"d was saying that you need to use your
mesorah's patach-cholam-qamatz, as he spells out in the rephrasing. And
that these vowels are what's misinai.
Which is also problematic, as the division of various possible
vowel alophones into specific phonemes probably didn't happen until
Teverya.
This next paragraph may make your eyes glaze over. It justifies the
previous one, but feel free to skip it if it bores you and move on to
the next point:
Which explains why Bavel's nequdos don't line up one-to-one with the ones
we use today -- one symbol for segol and patach and one symbol for qamatz
qatan and cholam with a different one for. And the prior Israeli system
fits Sepharadi pronounciation, fewer symbols showing less differentiation,
but it could simply be less precise. The way we still have one symbol for
qamatz qatan and qamatz gadol, or sheva na and sheva nach. (Unless you
are using a "simanim" or other non-standard printing. Unicode actually
supports this differentiation, if you find a font and a text file that
distinguishes.) One symbol does not mean one phoneme. But it hints at
how the locals viewer the vowels. Like Rashi, who echoes the Babylonian
single segol-patach system when he refers to a segol as a patach qatan.
(If you are still reading this paragraph, you'd probably enjoy our
mesorah email list. Ask me to sign you up!)
R Rallis Weisenthal (CC-ed), in his siddur in memory of Qh"Q Bad Homburg
pg LXV <http://bit.ly/2titFZE> (on opensiddur.org), lists traditional
Ashkneazi cholam sounds, claiming that they're all dipthongs. ("Claiming",
because I am not sure he's right on one of them):
Poland, Austria-Hungary
komatz chirik
O^i
[t]oy
Lithuania, Russia
segol chirik
Ae^i
[p]ay
Northern Germany, Holland
patach shuruk
A^u
[h]ow
Southern Germany, Switzerland, France, Latvia, England, North America
komatz shuruk
O^u
[g]o
I think the Lithuanian cholam was originally more like /oe/ a sound
halfway between /o/ and a tzeirei. (And the /e/ of the tzeirei isn't
quite the same as a segol.) What he is describing reflects later
Polish influence, a compromise position.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio could help here.
And I think the British cholam actually is rounder than a qamatz, like
a long /O/ in English. And like a long /O/, there is a tendency to add
a rounding /w/ (eg "blow"), but it's not always there. Maybe a dipthong
of qamatz qatan and a /w/, which is shitas haGra. Not entirely different
than what RRW writes, but also not quite as implied from his description.
Anyway, he has a continuing discussion by R' Y Kramer againt using a /y/
or /i/ sound to round a cholam. Go to the above link. It's too long and two
bi-lingual for me to cut-n-paste here.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
mi...@aishdas.org but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org sparks of fire emerge.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 11:27:53 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Balak "Who's the Real Jackass"
On Sat, Jul 01, 2017 at 10:03:51PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: 2) Both Abraham and Balaam arise early and mount their donkeys.
: However, Abraham's donkey is referred to as "chamor," while Balaam's is
: called an "aton."
: Why the difference? Rabbi Ari Kahn points out that "chamor" (physical)
: suggests that Abraham transcends and harnesses the donkey - a symbol of
: the physical.
: But Balaam is seen no better than his donkey...
Thus the root "aleph-tav", meaning together with (eg "ito bateivah").
The Gra makes this point about riding a chamor being mastery of one's
chomer vs being together with one's ason. I bet RAK cites him.
He lurks here, but I took the liberty of CC-ing RAK so as to get his
attention.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Brains to the lazy
mi...@aishdas.org are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Bechinas haOlam
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Message: 3
From: Ari Kahn
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 18:56:33 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Balak "Who's the Real Jackass"
The Maharal -- preceded the Gra on this point.
Here is a paragraph from the new edition of Explorations (anticipated
20th anniversary edition)
The denouement of history is in our hands. The Mashiach will be
revealed in clouds of glory if we are worthy; if we are unworthy, our
redemption will be of a far less exalted nature. If we are deserving,
the clouds will be revealed sooner; if not, the redemption will take
longer, and the process will be slow and plodding -- but the redemption
will surely come. And just as the clouds are an image that is laden
with meaning, representing man's ability to recognize and connect
to the metaphysical plane, so, too, the image of the Messiah as a
poor man riding on his donkey is no mere literary device: According
to mystical sources, this metaphor holds the key to the redemption
itself: The Zohar[1] explains that the role of Mashiach is to ride
on the chamor, to subdue the physical.[2]
________________________________
[1] Zohar Bemidbar 207a
???? ??? ? ?? ??/?
????? ?????? ??????, ???????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ??????,
?????????? ?????"?. ?????? ???? ?????? ??????, ??????????, (????? ??)
??? ????????? ???????? ?????????"? ?????????. ?????? ???? ??????,
?????????? ???????? ????????? ?????????? ??
Those of the right are all merged in one called "donkey," and that
is the donkey of which it is written, "You shall not plow with an
ox and a donkey together" [Devarim 22:10]. That is also the donkey
which the King Mashiach shall control. (Zohar, Bemidbar 207a)
[2] See comments of the Maharal in Netzach Yisrael chapter 40.
??? ??? ????? ???? ??? - ??? ?
???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????, ?"?
???????? ???"? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????
?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????...??"? ?? ??
???? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?????, ????
?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?"? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????,
????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?????.
Can I repeat that second line on list?
As for the first line... In general, email lists are failing. And yet,
I don't want to move Avodah to a medium that encourages quick and short
answers. If Avodah can't remain a place for in-depth discussion, I'll
let it fade away.
Mail-Jewish, the grand-daddy in the field, is coming out with a digest
every two weeks or so. Although it's healthier than Avodah in terms of
breadth of contributor pool.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org<mailto:mi...@aishdas.org> If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 4
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 10:54:43 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Making an Avodah Zarah out of it
Recently, someone quoted a friend as saying something about how doing
something for the wrong reason could constitute making the Mishna
Burah into an Avodah Zara. Or something like that, I don't remember
exactly, and I spent almost an hour trying to find the post, so that's
why I can't quote it.
Anyway, that person was wondering where the idea came from, and I
found the following in the current issue of Jewish Action, also
available online at
https://www.ou.org/jewish_action/06/201
7/rabbis-son-syndrome-religious-struggle-world-religious-ideals/
> Love of Torah does not always translate into love of
> people ? or even love of God. Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Kotzk
> caustically noted that increased religious observance is not
> always for the purpose of worshipping God, but rather
> sometimes it is for the sake of ?worshipping the Shulchan Aruch.?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 5
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 14:54:51 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] The good and the bad
Mishnah Megillah 4:9 teaches us: "One who says 'Your Name will be
remembered for the good [that You do]' ... he is silenced."
This is explained in the Gemara Megilla 25a, at the top: "It implies
that [we thank Him] for the good but not for the bad, but that
contradicts the Mishna that says that a person must bless for the bad
just like he blesses for the good."
That other Mishna (in Brachos) teaches us that we are obligated to say
one bracha or the other, depending on the events at hand. If one
experiences some of God's goodness, he must thank Him for it. On
*other* occasions Hashem does things that are painful, but that is
irrelevant: Here and now one must thank Him for the good.
Thus there is no contradiction between the two mishnayos, as they are
talking about two different situations: If one has actually
experienced something, then he must bless God for the good *OR* for
the bad, whichever applies to the experience. There is no need to be
inclusive, to mention that He is responsible for both. But when one
speaks in the abstract, about what God does in general, that is when
he must mention both the good and the bad. Or perhaps he can speak in
generalities, but he must be careful not to suggest that God does
*only* good things, to the exclusion of painful things: "One who says
'Your Name will be remembered for the good [that You do]' ... he is
silenced."
So my chavrusa and I took out our siddur, to see if this is actually
followed. The first page we turned to was Modim, in the Amidah. It
turns out that Modim - especially the chasima of the bracha - is
mostly about the idea idea that God *IS* good, not so much about that
He *does* good. The things He does is described mostly in terms of the
life He gives us, and the miracles that He does. (It is true that at
one point it we thank Him for "tovosecha" - Your good things - but
that is secondary, coming after "niflaosecha".)
But then we turned to the fourth bracha of Birkas Hamazon, usually
referred to as "Hatov v'haMaytiv" - "the One who is good, and does
good" - from the central words. And then it continues: "Hu haytiv, hu
maytiv, hu yaytiv lanu" - "He has done good, He does do good, and He
will do good to us." And it closes with: "He will never deprive us of
anything good."
Where is the bad?
In what way is this bracha not a violation of this mishna in Megilla?
I concede that we've left out the Mishna's word "yizacher", but I
don't think that is relevant. It appears to go directly against what
the Gemara Megilla wrote, "It implies that [we thank Him] for the good
but not for the bad." Is there any way to reconcile this gemara with
this bracha?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 16:44:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The good and the bad
On 04/07/17 14:54, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> But when one
> speaks in the abstract, about what God does in general, that is when
> he must mention both the good and the bad.
No. There is no need to mention all the things He does. Nor is there
any need, when thanking Him for the good things He does, to include also
the other things He does. What one may not do is declare that He is
*to be thanked for* the good things He does, which implies He is *not*
to be thanked for the other things he does.
--
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name be a brilliant year for us all
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Message: 7
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 12:15:20 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] being remembered
R'YBS commented (not so positively) on man's great desire to be remembered
(think Ozymandias). Question - from where does this desire spring? The
Gesher Hachayim, IIUC, says it is from the soul's knowledge that it is
eternal. Any other interpretations (halachic or general society)?
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 8
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 12:17:31 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Correcting Baalei Kriah
Does your shul have formal guidelines for correcting baalei kriah? If yes,
are they from a prior source? Are they consistently applied at all
minyanim? By whom?
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 11:00:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Correcting Baalei Kriah
On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 12:17:31PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Does your shul have formal guidelines for correcting baalei kriah?
: If yes, are they from a prior source? Are they consistently applied at
: all minyanim? By whom?
In an alternate reality, where I went into kelei qodesh instead of
Wall Street programming jobs, there is (would have been?) a movement
by now called Mevaqshei Tov veYosher, a/k/a Other-Focused Orthodoxy
(OFO).
The OFO flagship shul, Yishrei Leiv, hosts AishDas programming, of course,
and at this point in alternate time, has a number of ve'adei mussar,
shiurim in machashavah and workshops in tefillah.
And, in line with OFO ideology, the rule for who can correct the baal
qeri'ah is simple. The only people who can do so are (would be):
1- the gabbaim,
2- the rav, and
3- next week's baal qeri'ah <wry-grin>.
(Everyone else should go to the gabbaim quietly. Even at the expense of
an occasional repeated pasuq. But also gabbaim would need to know diqduq
and be able to field the simpler questions of which mistakes actually
require correction.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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