Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 88

Mon, 03 Jul 2017

< Previous Next >
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 18:15:07 -0400
Re: [Avodah] 10 tribes -- exile without redemption

On 26/06/17 12:15, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On this thread, did any of us mention birkhas ge'ulah? "Ufdeih
> khin'umekha Yehudah veYisrael" expresses our expectation that Hashem
> will redeem both malkhios. Or is there another way to talk separately
> about Yehudah and Yisrael.
> So I would think the siddur pasqens, and this is in all traditional
> nusachos, that the 1- tribes are not permanently lost.

It is not in all traditional nuschaos.  TTBOMK it's found only in Nusach 
Ashkenaz.  Sefarad substitutes the pasuk "Goaleinu", Italians substitute 
"Biglal avot...", I don't know what other traditional nuschaot do.

(Modern Nusach Ashkenaz and some versions of the Chassidic "Sfard" 
combine the old Ashkenaz and Sefarad endings; this was originally Nusach 
Tzorfat, back when that was distinct from Ashkenaz.)

(The reason for the Sefaradi ending with the pasuk rather than the other 
two versions is that the bracha is about Geulat Mitzrayim, not the 
future Geulah, hence the chatima "Ga'al Yisrael" as distinct from "Go'el 
Yisrael" in the 7th of the 18, so ending with a prayer for the future 
Geulah is off topic.  I don't know how the other two nuschaot would 
respond, but maybe that's why NA ended up adopting the Tzorfati 

Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

Go to top.

Message: 2
From: via Avodah
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 01:08:34 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Agudah [was: Support for Maaseh Satan]

From: Eli Turkel via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

<<The Agudist (at least  classically, there were exceptions
in the early years of the state, and  things seem to be wearing down now)
believe that Jews can regain sovereignty  over EY for the first time in
2 millenia without it being religiously  significant.>> [--I don't know who 
is being quoted here]

R Yoel bin  Nun has given this argument for many years. He understands DL 
and Satmar but  claims that the Agudah poisition basically denies that G-d 
affects history. We  now have a state for some 70 years that appears to be 
very successful but is  against the wishes of G-d.

Eli Turkel
All through Tanach there are examples of reshaim who succeed  (if only for 
a while).  Obviously it is Hashem's wish that they succeed,  even if it is 
not His wish that they sin.  
What is remarkable and miraculous about the last century of  history in 
Eretz Yisrael is how Eretz Yisrael has been built up, the growth of  
agriculture, cities, the economy, the Jewish population, and most of all the  amazing 
growth of Torah living and learning -- despite secular socialist  Zionism.  
The Medinah gets some credit but what is most remarkable is that  so much 
good has happened despite the Medinah or even very much against the  will of 
the secular government.  There is so much ohr vechoshech  mishtamshim 
be'irbuvya.  Nevertheless it is impossible /not/ to see the Yad  Hashem in the 
overall course of events over the past century.  How many  prophecies are coming 
true before our very eyes!
A thriving economy grew up under the very feet of the  socialists!  Is that 
not a miracle?!  Has such a thing ever happened  in any other country?! 
:- )

So what is the Agudah's position?
In November 1947, when the UN voted for the establishment of the Jewish  
State, the Agudah made the following declaration:
--begin quote--
The World Agudas Yisroel sees as an historic event the decision of the  
nations of the world to return to us, after 2000 years, a portion of the Holy  
Land, there to establish a Jewish state and to encompass within its borders 
the  banished and scattered members of our people.  This historic event must 
 bring home to every Jew the realization that ***the Almighty has brought 
this  about in an act of Divine Providence*** [my emphasis] which presents us 
 with a great task and a grave test.  We must face up to this test and  
establish our life as a people, upon the basis of Torah.  
While we are sorely grieved that the Land has been divided and sections of  
the holy Land have been torn asunder, especially Yerushalayim, the holy 
city,  while we still yearn for the aid of Mashiach tzidkeinu, who will bring 
us total  redemption, we nevertheless see the hand of Providence offering us 
the  opportunity to prepare for the geula shelaima if we will walk into the 
future as  G-d's people.
--end quote--
[quoted in __To Dwell in the Palace: Perspectives on Eretz Yisrael__ edited 
 by Tzvia Ehrlich-Klein, 1991]
The above is still fairly representative of the hashkafa of broad  swaths 
of Klal Yisrael who are charedi or charedi-leaning, yeshivish or  chassidish, 
neither Satmar nor Dati Leumi.  That is, the majority of all  frum Jews in 
America and Eretz Yisrael.
--Toby  Katz


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-a

Go to top.

Message: 3
From: via Avodah
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 01:31:41 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Explanation of the Tur?


From: Chana Luntz via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>


Well the CC is  explaining the Rambam.  The Rambam says:

--quote-- A woman who  studies Torah gains a reward but not like the reward 
of a man, 
...and even though she gains a reward, the Sages commanded that a man  
should not 
teach his daughter Torah because the majority of women their minds  are not 
suited to
 the learning, and they will turn matters of Torah to matters of  
foolishness according to
the poverty of their minds, the Sages said: Anyone  who teaches his daughter
Torah it is as if he teaches her tiflut.  With  regard to what are we
speaking, with Torah she baal peh [oral Torah]; but  Torah she bichtav
[written Torah] even though he should not teach her ab  initio, if he taught
her it is not as though he taught her tiflut. --end  quote--

That is, the Rambam says: women who study Torah gain reward BUT a  man 
not teach his daughter Torah BUT only Torah she ba'al peh is  tiflut, while
Torah shebichtav shouldn't be done, it is not  tiflut.

So, the Rambam here appears to only have two categories of Torah,  torah
sheba'al peh, and torah shebichtav ...

....But saying that the
experiential aspect is not Torah at all,  would seem to be saying the 
talmedei chachaimim, which is so valued  as essential for horah, is in fact
not Torah at all, and it would also seem  to knock out ma-aseh rav, which is
again absolutely critical for our  definition of halacha l'ma'ase....  

.....So this kind of informal education - how to put on  tephillin, how to 
showing how to... (the list is endless) is not  Torah, and doesn't take the
bracha when done between father and son, or rebbe  and talmid?  Isn't that
the consequence of what you are saying?   That the only Torah that men are
obligated to learn as Talmud Torah are the  formal abstract rules and
regulations and not the practical, which is best  taught experientially?   



I think that different uses of the word "Torah" are being confused  here.  
The very word "Torah" has many meanings, depending on context.   It can 
refer to just the Chumash -- the Torah shebichsav -- about which the  Rambam 
says "but Torah she bichtav [written Torah] even though he should not  teach 
her ab initio, if he taught her it is not as though he taught her  tiflut."  
Some chassidishe schools to this day do not teach girls  Chumash.
The word Torah can mean both Chumash and Gemara.  "The Sages said:  Anyone 
who teaches his daughter
Torah it is as if he teaches her  tiflut."  There is universal agreement 
that "Torah" in this context means  Gemara.  NO ONE thinks that teaching 
halacha to girls is  tantamount to teaching tiflus.
The word "Torah" can refer to the vast corpus of everything that has ever  
been written by or about the Tanaim and Amoraim, Rishonim and Achronim.  The 
word can refer to halacha, to hashkafa, to everything that makes up  Jewish 
life and thought.
"Torah" can also refer to that which is taught and learned by example,  or 
by osmosis, or by a mother's tears when she bentshes lecht and davens for 
her  children.  "Al titosh Toras imecha."
Every language has words like that, words whose precise meaning depends on  
context.  Certainly in the Gemara itself there are many such  words.  

--Toby  Katz


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 4
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 13:18:11 +0000
What is the correct way to pronounce Hashem’s name in Shmoneh

 From today's OU Halacha Yomis

Q. What is the correct way to pronounce Hashem's name in Shmoneh Esrei
and other brachos?

A. Rav Shlomo Zalman Ehrenreich, HY"D the Av Bais Din of Shomloy in
Hungary, once wrote a letter on this subject. It reads in part, "We have
a tradition in our hands from Sinai, from the mouth of the Almighty,
that the reading of the honored and awesome name of Hashem is AH -- DOY
-- NOY (AH-DOE -- NOY or AH-DOW-NOY) using the vowelization of Chataf
Patach for the Aleph, a Cholam for the Daled and a Kamatz for the Nun..."

"Our master the Chasam Sofer and the author of the Yesod V'Shoresh
HaAvodah, zt"l and a whole group of Geonim and Kedoshim have already
warned us that unfortunately there are many mistakes concerning this. One
needs to be very careful about this matter for a common mistake has spread
among the masses and even among those with fear of Hashem. Through a lack
of concentration, the Daled (of Hashem's pronounced name) is said with
a Sheva as "AHD-ENOY." It is certain that whoever pronounces Hashem's
name this way has not said Hashem's name at all and must repeat the
bracha again, and so did the Chasam Sofer rule."

Rav Shimon Schwab, zt"l in his classic work on Siddur, Iyun Tefilla
(p. 25), adds that one should also be careful not to say AH -- DEE --
NOY. He writes: "One must pronounce the Daled with a Cholam (DOY, DOE
or DOW) and the Nun with a Kamatz, and not use a Chirik under the Daled
(DEE) as is the custom of some who are mistaken and think that they
are pronouncing the Name properly... This is a disgrace of the honored
and awesome Name. One who pronounces Hashem's name with a Chirik even
a hundred times a day is not transgressing the prohibition of saying
Hashem's name in vain."

Rav Pinchas Scheinberg, zt"l was once asked if Ahd-enoy or Ahdeenoy are
acceptable be'dieved, after the fact. His response was a resounding "No!"

Go to top.

Message: 5
From: Zalman Alpert
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 09:30:39 -0400
Re: What is the correct way to pronounce Hashem’s name in

On Jun 29, 2017 10:18 AM, "Professor L. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> From today's OU Halacha Yomis
> *Q. What is the correct way to pronounce Hashem?s name in Shmoneh Esrei
> and other brachos?*

There are different ways in Ashkenazi hebrew to pronounce many vowels
like cholom zeira segol etc so this answer isof little meaning
Galicianer Lithuanian German Ukrainian Hungarian and Central Polish jews
each have their own pronunciation

See Michtvei Torah by Gerer rebbe Imre Emes where opines different than
what is written here
Rabbi Heschel of Hamodia several yrs ago discussed this issue in a very
cogent manner
Although many American college educated frum Jews believe there is
only 1way of halachic practice that is absurd,there are many authentic
practices to the chagrin of a group of yedhivashe people seeking to
impose uniform practicr namely their own

Nehare nehare upishteh

Go to top.

Message: 6
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 13:56:07 +0000
[Avodah] Forgotten Fast Days

Please see the article at


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 12:04:42 -0400
[Avodah] Authority of Cherem deRabbeinu Gershom

AhS EhE 1:23,25 etc... refers to taqanos or gezeiros passed by Rabbein
Gershon meOr haGolah and his contemporaries. Not the idiom I heard in the
past, "cheirem deR' Gershom" -- not even the same last letter on the name.

Since this was well after the last beis din hagadol / Sanhedrin (so
far), we have discussed in the past where the authority to pass such
laws came from. My own suggestion revolved around them being charamim
for anyone who... rather than direct issurim. But the AhS would be more
medayeiq to call them charamim if he thought that was a critical part
of the mechanism.

But here is something that had me wondering all over again.

AhS EhE 119:17... The question is how a gett given without the wife's
agreement would be valid if one holds "i avid lo mahani" (like Rava).
And yet the Rama says "avar vegirshah ba"k" he is an avaryan (and thus
in nidui) until she remarries. One it can't be fixed, because he cannot
remarry his gerushah anymore, the nidui is removed.

But the AhS writes, if this is true for a derabbanan (Kesuvor 81b)
*kol shekein* dChdR"G hu kemo qarov le'isur Torah.

Without explaining why.

And I can't even figure out how it has the authority to be more than minhag


Micha Berger             If you're going through hell
mi...@aishdas.org        keep going.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Winston Churchill
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Go to top.

Message: 8
From: Cantor Wolberg
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 22:03:51 -0400
[Avodah] Balak "Who's the Real Jackass"

1) Balaam advocates the destruction of an entire people.  He is a hired gun
(or mouth) who has exploited his prophetic gift and is willing to help
implement a genocide for the right price.  
This type of individual has separated himself from all people, hence, this position of his is coded in his very name Balaam, "B'li Am," "without a people." 
2) Both Abraham and Balaam arise early and mount their donkeys.  However, Abraham's donkey is referred to as "chamor," while Balaam's is called an "aton.?  
Why the difference?  Rabbi Ari Kahn points out that "chamor" (physical) suggests that Abraham transcends and harnesses the donkey - a symbol of the physical.  
But Balaam is seen no better than his donkey, therefore his donkey speaks to him -- the inference being that Balaam has descended to an animalistic level, 
and that is the symbolism of the donkey talking to him. 
I see it as "chamor" in the sense of "heavy" referring to Abraham, since he
carries so much more weight than Balaam. On the other hand, Balaam's donkey
is called ?aton,? 
very similar to the word "etnan" which means a "harlot's pay? ? quitet
fascinating since Balaam prostituted himself with the intention of
fulfilling Balak's request.

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.?
Albert Einstein
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 9
From: Arie Folger
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 17:25:15 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Support for Maaseh Satan

RMB wrote:
> IMHO, it's easier to understand Satmar or Munkacz anti-Zionism than
> Agudah's classical position of non-Zionism. The former agrees with the RZ
> that the Medinah is a huge event of vast import, but disagree about what
> the import is. The Agudist (at least classically, there were exceptions
> in the early years of the state, and things seem to be wearing down now)
> believe that Jews can regain sovereignty over EY for the first time in
> 2 millenia without it being religiously significant.

Indeed, I recall, upon dealing with those various shittos while in RIETS,
particularly as covered by Rav Charlop in a shiur of his, that Satmar and
Rav Kook are a lot closer to each other than to Agudah & Rav Soloveitchik.
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://rabbifolger.net/

* Koscheres Geld (Podcast)

* Kennt die Existenz nur den Chaos? G?ttliches Vorsehen im J?dischen
Gedankengut (Podcast)

* Halacha zum Wochenabschnitt: Baruch Hu uWaruch Schemo

* Is there Order to the World? Providence in Jewish Thought

* What is Modern Orthodoxy (from a radio segment)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod


Avodah mailing list



Send Avodah mailing list submissions to

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

You can reach the person managing the list at

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

A list of common acronyms is available at
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)

< Previous Next >