Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 56

Fri, 28 Apr 2017

• 1. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Two days [was: kitniyot] (Akiva Miller)
• 3. Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Sholom Simon)
• 4. One Hundred Percent (Sholom Simon)
• 5. Two days [was: kitniyot] (Sholom Simon)
• 6. Re: Two days [was: kitniyot] (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Two days [was: kitniyot] (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: Two days [was: kitniyot] (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Re: If You Are Choshesh for GeBrochts You MUST be Choshesh that Youir Matza is Chamets (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 11. Carbonite ()
• 12. Re: [Areivim] Better to die (Ben Bradley)
• 13. Re: Carbonite (Saul Guberman)
• 14. Re: Carbonite (Zev Sero)
• 15. Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Prof. Levine)

R' Micha Berger concluded:

> BTW, if I had to guess, it would depend on whether people are
> indeed motivated by a consciencous following of family customs
> and the perspective on Torah that comes with their subculture.
> And how much is simple ethnic pride and the actual identification
> with Litvaks or Hungarians or Yekkes, Mughrabi or Halbi than
> identification with the Jewish People, or shomerei Torah umitzvos
> as self-identifications.

That's an excellent analysis, until we ask which side of the aisle the
MB and AhS were on.

By insisting that the whole shul should do the same thing, aren't they
putting the main emphasis on family customs, their own subculture,
ethnic pride, and subgroup identification -- with LESS emphasis on
identification with the Jewish People and shomerei Torah umitzvos? Do
we really want to accuse the MB and AhS of that?

I think there is another way we can look at this whole topic. Let's
ask what makes Chol Hamoed Tefillin so unusual. Why is this case
different than so many others? Someone else asked why there isn't any
enforced uniformity regarding unmarried men wearing a tallis in shul.
Why is that different?

How about the differing ways of avoiding simcha during sefira? One
person will make a wedding during the last week of Nisan, and another
person FROM THE SAME SHUL will make a wedding after Lag Baomer. Not
only is this tolerated, but the entire shul is allowed to attend both
weddings! Why don't we insist that the whole town should go one way or
the other, like with the tefillin?

Sometimes I feel that our perspective on these issues is so very
different than what prevailed in the unified kehilos of yesteryear,
that we cannot ever hope to understand it. I think the confusion comes
from try to impose one perspective on a differing situation. Perhaps
we ought to "agree to disagree". Specifically: *WE* get strength from
our diversity; *THEY* got strength from their uniformity.

I personally worry about the misfits in those cultures, and the losses
they suffered. But perhaps their leaders accepted that as an
acceptable price for the chizuk that came to the larger group. We have
been trained to be unwilling to accept such a price, and we fight for
every single individual. But that too has a price, and we are often
unable or unwilling to admit it.

Akiva Miller

R"n Toby Katz wrote:

> I think one reason for keeping two days Shavuos is disagreement
> in the mesorah over which exact day the Torah was given.

Yes, there is a disagreement over whether the Torah was given on 6
Sivan or on 7 Sivan. And there are lots of cute vertlach about whether
Shavuos is about *Matan* Torah, or *Kabalas* HaTorah (and whether or
not they happened on the same day).

But the bottom line is the the Torah says Shavuos occurs 50 days after
Pesach. If you know Pesach, then there is absolutely no uncertainty
about Shavuos.

Akiva Miller

>Most posqim do rule that the guys wearing tefillin on ch"m should be in
>a different minyan than those who don't. And barring that, compromises
>evolved like hijacking the ezras nashim for the smaller group.

There's something about this that I've never understood.  Suppose a 
person is having a stomach problem -- isn't he supposed to refrain 
from wearing tefillin?  So, in a shul, a guy is not wearing tefillin 
-- how do we even know what his reason is?  (In fact, I think I 
recall hearing that R Moshe himself didn't wear tefillin many times 
towards the end of his life for this reason).

So, of all the things regarding lo sisgadedu -- why tefillin?  Why 
not all the other things that daveners wear differently?  (E.g., 
different minhagim via-a-vis wearing a tallis before marriage?)

-- Sholom

>Rabbi Mayer said: a person is obligated to recite 100 Brachos each 
>day. In the Jerusalem Talmud we
>learned: it was taught in the name of Rabbi Mayer; there is no Jew 
>who does not fulfill one hundred
>Mitzvos each day, as it was written: Now Israel, what does G-d your 
>G-d ask of you? Do not read the
>verse as providing for the word: ?what? (Mah); instead read it as 
>including the word: ?one hundred?
>(Mai?Eh).

IIRC, there's a fun Ba'al HaTurim on this pasek:

If you add the alef into the pasuk -- not only does it turn the word 
into "100" -- but the pasuk will then have 100 letters in it.

-- Sholom

> > I think one reason for keeping two days Shavuos is disagreement in the
> > mesorah over which exact day the Torah was given.

Indeed.  Machlokes over whether it was Sivan 6 or 7.

OTOH, the 50th day could also have fallen on Sivan 5, no?

>The link between Shavuos and Matan Torah is  an artifact of our fixed
>calendar; when kidush hachodesh was going Shavuos was not always on zman
>matan toraseinu.

Leading to an obvious question: did they say "zman matan toraseinu" 
when davening if Shavuos wasn't on zman matan toraseinu that year?

(I'm not being snarky -- it's a genuine question)

-- Sholom

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 10:58:07PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
: Leading to an obvious question: did they say "zman matan toraseinu"
: when davening if Shavuos wasn't on zman matan toraseinu that year?

The explanation I like (eg from Maadanei Yom Tov) is that "zeman matan
Toraseinu" is not a date in Sivan, but a number of days after Yetzias
Mitzrayim or of the omer. Your question is based on the idea that "zeman"
is a time on the calendar, not a point in a process (be it redemption
or of omer).

The MYT I mentioned earlier explains why Matan Torah was on the 7th
whereas our Zeman Matan Toraseinu is on the 6th: He (the Tosafos Yom
Tov?) notes that omer is both tisperu 50 yom and sheva shabasos
temimos. It is 50 days or 7 x 7 = 49 days? So, uusually we think 49
days of omer, Shavuos is the 50th. The MYT says that 49 days of omer
and the first day of Pesach is the 0th.

Zeman Matan Toraseinu is thus after 50 days of process.

For our Pesach, that's day 1 of Pesach + 49 omer, yeilding Sivan 6th.

The first Pesach, though, Yetzi'as Mitzrayim was at midnight. So
the first full day, usable as day 0, was the 16th of Nissan. Shifting
everying off one day, so that process from physical ge'ulah to matan
Torah ended on 7 Sivan.

But whether you like that vertl or not, the idea that would answer your
question is just that "zeman" is not necessarily a date; just as Shabbos
is a time based on interval, not date.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 16th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Tifferes: What type of discipline
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             does harmony promote?

When was that prayer written, before or after the calendar was set?

Ben

On 4/28/2017 4:58 AM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
> Leading to an obvious question: did they say "zman matan toraseinu" 
> when davening if Shavuos wasn't on zman matan toraseinu that year? 

I think it's a false dichotomy.  We assume that zman matan Toratenu is 
the calendar date on which the Torah was given.  Clearly, that's not the 
case.  Zman matan Toratenu is 50 days after the calendar date on which 
we left Egypt.  Our receiving the Torah was an inextricable part of the 
Exodus.

Lisa

On 4/28/2017 5:58 AM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
> The link between Shavuos and Matan Torah is  an artifact of our fixed
>> calendar; when kidush hachodesh was going Shavuos was not always on zman
>> matan toraseinu.
>
> Leading to an obvious question: did they say "zman matan toraseinu" 
> when davening if Shavuos wasn't on zman matan toraseinu that year?


---
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On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:06:44AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: "Insufficiently kneaded" means that there might be some flour in the
: middle of the matza that never got wet and is still plain raw flour,
: and that if it gets wet it will become chometz. "Insufficiently baked"
: means that there is some dough in the middle of the matza that did not
: get baked, and it is already chometz. And RMGR feels that the second
: of these is a "much greater risk".

But...
If the matzah is sufficiently baked but insufficiently kneeded, would
any of the dry flour that went through the oven be still capable of
becoming chaneitz if wet? If the dough is now too baked to rise any
further, wouldn't lo kol shekein any flour -- a fine powder -- be to
toasted to be a problem? See Hil Chameitz uMatzah 5:5, which discvusses
things not to do because "shelma lo qulhu yafeh." But where the flour
is within baked matzah, how is that possible?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 17th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              state of harmony?

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 03:02:19PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: The Chasam Sofer explains based on the Rambam (Mishneh Torah, Hilkhos
: Kiddush Ha-Chodesh 3:12), that the reason for 2 days of Shavuos so as not
: differentiate between holidays, since the other holidays had a second day
: the Sages decreed a second day for Shavuos as well. The Chasam Sofer has a
: fascinating chiddush about this. He understands this to mean that for most
: holidays, the second day of Yom Tov was established based on a doubt. But
: the second day of Shavuos was established as a certainty. Therefore, the
: rules are even stricter than on the second day of other holidays.

Lo zakhisi lehavin.

All the other YT sheini are lezeikher an uncertaintain. They are a
taqanah derabbanan, not the original uncertainty.

Yes, let's say the taqanah was to continue acting AS THOUGH the
uncertainty was there. So, we saved the idea off the other holidays
being of the form of an uncertainty.

But then Shavuos's 2nd day is lo pelug. Which means that it too was
like the others, which would mean a taqanah to imitate being uncertain
about the date.

What am I missing in the CS's sevara?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 17th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              state of harmony?

I signed up for something called Carbonite, which uploads everything on  
your computer to the Cloud where it might be possible to retrieve it all if 
your  computer dies or is stolen.  The thing is, either I have way too much on 
my  computer or my computer is way too old and slow, but anyway, Carbonite 
started  uploading on Sunday afternoon and now, Thursday night, it is STILL  
uploading.  It continuously shows what progress it has made, and it is  
showing me that it has uploaded 43% of my computer.  I am no math whiz but  I 
can figure out that if it took from Sunday to Thursday to upload 43% it is 
not  going to reach 100% before Shabbos.  
 
I asked the Carbonite tech person what happens if you turn off your  
computer in the middle, and he said Carbonite will just continue where it left  
off when you turn your computer back on.  Interestingly we had a test case  on 
Monday when my neighborhood lost power for six hours.  When the power  came 
back on, Carbonite did NOT resume where it had left off.  Instead, I  had 
to call Carbonite and ended up being on the phone for an hour while they  
told me to do this and that and then they did whatever and finally got 
Carbonite  to resume its weary work.  So here is my question for the learned chevra  
here on Avodah:
 
Can I just leave my computer on all Shabbos, in another room with the door  
closed where I won't see it and it won't fashtair my Shabbos, and let 
Carbonite  keep running and running?  (It looks like it will take a whole nother 
week  to finish.)  Or should I sell my laptop to a goy and buy it back after 
 Shabbos?  (That was a joke, for those of you in Rio Linda.)  Should I  
turn it off and resign myself to talking to tech support again for another hour 
 to get it working again after Shabbos?  Oy, siz shver tsu zein a  Yid! 
 
Is leaving a laptop on all Shabbos with Carbonite uploading more like [A]  
leaving your lights, fridge and air conditioning on all Shabbos  or [B] 
leaving a TV or radio on -- dubiously muttar, definitely not  Shabbosdik or [C] 
making your eved Canaani work for you all day Shabbos --  a no-no or [D] 
giving your clothes to the Greek dressmaker to fix and telling  her you need 
them some time next week, and if she for her own  convenience decides to do 
the work on Shabbos, that's copacetic?  
 
 
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============



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From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Sent: 27 April 2017 13:13
...
> In it, a man was so love-sick for a woman that he would die unless he
> could speak to her; at least through a fence...

>     Bishloma according to the man da'amar she was an eishes ish,
>     shapir.
>     But according to the MdA she was penuyah -- mah kulei hai?
...
> So what's the exchange saying? That it is yeihareig ve'al ya'avor
> because of the consequent peritzus? Or that bishloma an eishes ish
> would be YvAY, but a penyah, who isn't, why wouldn't the guy be
> allowed to speak to her?

Of note, that gemara is brought in Rambam Yesodei HaTorah in the context
of acheiving cure for illness through hana'as issur. Meaning that it's
not a halacha of gilui arayos per se, rather hana'as issur. He paskens
it's assur even with a pnuya so that bnos yisrael won't be hefker.
No mention of pgam mishpacha.


(Parenthetically this seems to be an din of yeihareig v'al ya'avor
midrabannon (so that bnos yisrael etc..). Any other such cases? I'd
assumed YvAY is always d'oirasa, almost by definition)


The focus in the gemara and even more so in Rambam's context is someone
who's smitten. In that case even a conversation will give hana'as
issur. In fact that's the only reason the conversation is being sought.

There is no suggestion that conversation in any normal situation is an
issur hana'a per se, so therefore is not assur, certainly not Yeihareig
V'al Yaavor.

Therefore can't see how this gemara would be relevant to the army issue
any more than the familiar dinim of r'eiyas einayim, kirva l'arayos etc
which are no less relevant in the workplace and on the street.

[Email #2. -micha]

On further reflection, the chiddush of the gemara (at least the man d'amar
pnyua), and it's a big one, seems to be that chazal were so concerned
with hana'as issur arayos that they were even gozer YvAY on an hana'as
arayos d'rabbanon ie a pnyua.

Nonetheless the whole gemara is still only relevant to a case of clear
hana'as issur.

Ben

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 1:03 AM, [Rn Toby Katz] wrote:
> I signed up for something called Carbonite...
> Can I just leave my computer on all Shabbos, in another room with the door
> closed where I won't see it and it won't fashtair my Shabbos, and let
> Carbonite keep running and running?  (It looks like it will take a whole
> nother week to finish.) ...

What tzurus.  I use crash plan.  They each have their share of grief.  I
leave my computer on 24x7 except 2 day yomtov.  I turn off the monitor and
make sure the keyboard and mouse are secure before Shabbat.  Why is it any
different than leaving on the A/C?  Back in the day, people would set the
vcr to record a show over shabbat.  That was a bit more dubious but was
done.

Good Shabbos

On 28/04/17 01:03, via Avodah wrote:
> Is leaving a laptop on all Shabbos with Carbonite uploading more like
> [A] leaving your lights, fridge and air conditioning on all Shabbos
> or [B] leaving a TV or radio on -- dubiously muttar, definitely not
> Shabbosdik or [C] making your eved Canaani work for you all day Shabbos
> -- a no-no or [D] giving your clothes to the Greek dressmaker to fix and
> telling her you need them some time next week, and if she for her own
> convenience decides to do the work on Shabbos, that's copacetic?

It's A, shevisas keilim, which is a machlokes of Beis Shammai and Beis 
Hillel.  The halacha of course follows Beis Hillel, that we are not 
commanded on shevisas keiliim, so it's completely OK.

The problem with B is hashma`as kol, which is a species of mar'is 
ho`ayin; passersby will hear the sound of work being done in your home 
and will suspect you, if not of actual chilul shabbos, then at least of 
amira lenochri.  It is muttar if there are no Jews within a techum shabbos.

C is of course completely out, mid'oraisa, even if the eved sets his own 
schedule.  Avadim are obligated to keep Shabbos.

D is amira lenochri, which is completely muttar mid'oraisa, but the 
chachamim forbade it lest you come to do melacha yourself.  Thus it's 
muttar if the decision to do the work on Shabbos rather than during the 
week is completely up to the nochri.

BTW you don't need to leave it to sometime next week; you can ask to 
have it ready when the shop opens on Sunday morning, and it's up to the 
cleaner whether to do it on Shabbos or to stay up all night motzei 
shabbos to get it done. It's only assur if there are literally not 
enough weekday hours between now and when you want it, so that the 
nochri *must* do some of it on Shabbos.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

At 09:14 PM 4/27/2017, R. Micha Berger wrote:
>EY is nearly there WRT tefillin on ch"m, with only a few holdouts
>like KAJ.

This statement does not seem to be correct.  See http://tinyurl.com/3ouq78x

Note the following from there.


Many people wear tefillin on chol hamoed in Eretz 
Yisroel, including some gedolim. However, some do 
it betzinoh so it is not so well known.

One such godol is the Erlau?er Rebbe. You can go 
in his beis medrash and see him with tefillin. He 
keeps the minhogim of his zeide, the Chasam 
Sofer, to wear tefillin on chol hamoed and daven nusach Ashkenaz.

There are even some minyonim where people wear 
tefillin on Chol Hamoed, like a Yekkishe minyan in Bnei Brak that I know of.

and   (I do not know what all of the ?  stand for.)


Here are a few names, a sampling of some past 
gedolim who wore tefillin on chol hamoed IN ERETZ 
YISROEL (either betzinoh or otherwise) ?

Moreinu HaRav Schach, Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, 
Rav Michel Feinstein (eidem of the Brisker Rav), 
Pressburger Rav, and Rav Duschinsky, ????.

The ???? ????? was in Eretz Yisroel. In his 
siddur Shaarei Shomayim, he has tefillin on chol hamoed.

Rav Moshe Feinstein ???? writes in a teshuvoh 
that he knows of thousands of bnei Torah who put 
on tefillin on chol hamoed in Eretz Yisroel.

?????? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????, ????? 
of Edah Charedis was heard also taking the 
position that someone whose minhog is to put on 
tefillin on chol hamoed cannot just suddenly drop it totally in Eretz Yisroel.

The above and previous post is based on what I 
heard about this inyan ??? ?? ?????? ??????? 
??????, ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????.

I think there is an Oberlander minyan in 
Yerushlayim where they wear tefillin on Chol 
Hamoed as well, if I recall correctly.

YL

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