Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 55

Thu, 27 Apr 2017

• 1. Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Joseph Kaplan)
• 2. Re: kitniyot (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Metzorah "LEPERS DO CHANGE THEIR SPOTS" (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Joseph Kaplan)
• 6. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Joseph Kaplan)
• 8. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Joseph Kaplan)
• 10. Re: Two days [was: kitniyot] ()
• 11. One Hundred Percent (Cantor Wolberg)
• 12. Re: Two days [was: kitniyot] (Zev Sero)
• 13. Better to die (Micha Berger)

"When you have some men wearing tefillin and others not wearing  
tefillin in the same minyan on chol hamoed, the presence of each subset  
implies that the members of the other subset are transgressing  halacha. This 
makes the whole set, with its mutually contradictory  halachic subsets, look 
bad from a Heavenly perspective, and potentially brings  down Heavenly judgment."

Far be it for me to know what things look like from a Heavenly perspective.
But let me suggest this. Heaven sees different people conscientiously
following their family customs and davening together nonetheless in peace
and harmony understanding that all are acting out of a love for Torah and,
in the sense of shivim panim, not thinking that anyone is a transgressor.
And Heaven kaviyachol says, mi keamcha Yisrael.

Just a thought from a different perspective. 

Joseph

Sent from my iPhone

R' Akiva Miller wrote:
"Shavuos mochiach.

Even with *ancient* communications, the whole world knew the correct
date of Rosh Chodesh Nisan by the time Shavuos arrived. Nine weeks and
one day later, it is Shavuos.

Rosh Chodesh Iyar is irrelevant. Rosh Chodesh Sivan is irrelevant. If
you know Rosh Chodesh Nisan, then you know Shavuos. It's just
arithmetic.

Obviously, uncertainty about R"C Nisan is NOT the only reason to have
a second day of Shavuos. There must be other reasons too. If you can
discover all of them, and explain all of them, and explain how Shavuos
fits, *then* we can discuss "gezerot that no longer make sense"."

The Chasam Sofer explains based on the  Rambam (Mishneh Torah, Hilkhos
Kiddush Ha-Chodesh 3:12), that the reason for 2 days of Shavuos so as not
differentiate between holidays, since the other holidays had a second day
the Sages decreed a second day for Shavuos as well. The Chasam Sofer has a
fascinating chiddush about this. He understands this to mean that for most
holidays, the second day of Yom Tov was established based on a doubt. But
the second day of Shavuos was established as a certainty. Therefore, the
rules are even stricter than on the second day of other holidays.
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On this, the Shabbos preceding Yom Haatzmaut, we read the Haftarah 
containing the following verse referring to the four lepers: ?And they said
to one another: ?We are not doing the right thing; today is a day of good tidings
and yet, we remain silent! If we wait until the light of dawn (until it?s too late),
we will be adjudged as sinners; now come, let us go and report to the king?s
palace.?  Second Kings 7:9

It is fascinating that in our own times, this verse contains a challenging message.
It is remarkable how the events of modern Israel ran parallel to the the story told 
in this Biblical chapter. The Arab armies besieging the Jewish community in Israel,
their panic and sudden flight, the great deliverance which followed, and the birth of
the State of Israel ? do we not see the hand of Providence in all these events?

In one respect we are deeply worried. The lepers of the Haftarah possessed the 
moral obligation to proclaim the miracle. ?We are not doing the right thing. This is
a day of good tidings and it is not proper that we should be quiet about it.?  Many
of us today (outcasts of yesterday) have still not risen to the moral height of 
recognizing that a miracle has transpired before our very eyes and therefore our
duty to proclaim the greatness of the day!

Let us, therefore, proclaim it to our children and to the world. Let us, with a firm belief 
in the future of Israel, do everything possible to assure its existence, strengthen its
foundations, and thus look forward to the day of good tidings, the day of Israel?s 
total and quintessential Independence!
rw

John Adams:  "I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation. 
If I was an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews 
to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations? They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. 
The Romans and their empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews.?

John F. Kennedy: "Israel was not created in order to disappear ? Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and the home of the brave. 
It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honors the sword of freedom."

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03:43PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
:> implies that the members of the other subset are transgressing  halacha. This 
:> makes the whole set, with its mutually contradictory  halachic subsets, look 
:> bad from a Heavenly perspective, and potentially brings  down Heavenly judgment.

: Far be it for me to know what things look like from a Heavenly
: perspective. But let me suggest this. Heaven sees different people
: conscientiously following their family customs and davening together
: nonetheless in peace and harmony understanding that all are acting out
: of a love for Torah and, in the sense of shivim panim, not thinking that
: anyone is a transgressor. And Heaven kaviyachol says, mi keamcha Yisrael.

I think we've lost sight of the original topic.

Most posqim do rule that the guys wearing tefillin on ch"m should be in
a different minyan than those who don't. And barring that, compromises
evolved like hijacking the ezras nashim for the smaller group.

When I was a kid, we tefillin-wearers davened Shacharis in the basement,
joining the rest of the shteibl only for the latter part of davening.

We are therefore starting with data, the pesaq, and trying to figure
out what that means aggadically.

Not just blindly guessing about how things look in heaven. If things
are as you portray it, the original question is stronger -- what you
said doesn't resolve anything.

BTW, if I had to guess, it would depend on whether people are indeed
motivated by a consciencous following of family customs and the
perspective on Torah that comes with their subculture. And how much
is simple ethnic pride and the actual identification with Litvaks or
Hungarians or Yekkes, Mughrabi or Halbi than identification with the
Jewish People, or shomerei Torah umitzvos as self-identifications.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 15th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Tifferes: What is the Chesed in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            harmony?

Lost sight of original topic? If that were a valid criticism we'd hear it at least once if not more in every issue. 

As to substance. I've been davening in shuls on chol haMoed for more than
50 years and every shul I've davened in, all Modern Orthodox led by rabbis
who were well respected talmedei chachamim, had men with and without
teffilin davening in one minyan together, sitting next to each other
without problems or, I'm pretty sure, thinking of transgressors. 

That's MY data which I would hope is as valid as shteibl data. And that's what my response to my good friend Toby was trying to deal with. 

I wasn't the one to raise the perspective of Heaven but I found Toby's
thoughtful comment refreshingly interesting and, as always, articulate, so
I thought about it a bit and responded. I thought that what we do here on
A/A. 

Joseph

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 26, 2017, at 4:29 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03:43PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
> :> implies that the members of the other subset are transgressing  halacha. This 
> :> makes the whole set, with its mutually contradictory  halachic subsets, look 
> :> bad from a Heavenly perspective, and potentially brings  down Heavenly judgment.
> 
> : Far be it for me to know what things look like from a Heavenly
> : perspective. But let me suggest this. Heaven sees different people
> : conscientiously following their family customs and davening together
> : nonetheless in peace and harmony understanding that all are acting out
> : of a love for Torah and, in the sense of shivim panim, not thinking that
> : anyone is a transgressor. And Heaven kaviyachol says, mi keamcha Yisrael.
> 
> I think we've lost sight of the original topic.
> 
> Most posqim do rule that the guys wearing tefillin on ch"m should be in
> a different minyan than those who don't. And barring that, compromises
> evolved like hijacking the ezras nashim for the smaller group.
> 
> When I was a kid, we tefillin-wearers davened Shacharis in the basement,
> joining the rest of the shteibl only for the latter part of davening.
> 
> We are therefore starting with data, the pesaq, and trying to figure
> out what that means aggadically.
> 
> Not just blindly guessing about how things look in heaven. If things
> are as you portray it, the original question is stronger -- what you
> said doesn't resolve anything.
> 
> BTW, if I had to guess, it would depend on whether people are indeed
> motivated by a consciencous following of family customs and the
> perspective on Torah that comes with their subculture. And how much
> is simple ethnic pride and the actual identification with Litvaks or
> Hungarians or Yekkes, Mughrabi or Halbi than identification with the
> Jewish People, or shomerei Torah umitzvos as self-identifications.
> 
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
> 
> -- 
> Micha Berger             Today is the 15th day, which is
> mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
> http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Tifferes: What is the Chesed in
> Fax: (270) 514-1507                            harmony?

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 09:42:41PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
: As to substance. I've been davening in shuls on chol haMoed for more
: than 50 years and every shul I've davened in, all Modern Orthodox led
: by rabbis who were well respected talmedei chachamim, had men with and
: without teffilin davening in one minyan together, sitting next to each
: other without problems or, I'm pretty sure, thinking of transgressors.
: 
: That's MY data which I would hope is as valid as shteibl data. And
: that's what my response to my good friend Toby was trying to deal with.

Those are both anecdotes.

(BTW, it was a pretty MO shteibl. We had more professors and other PhDs
than you can shake a stick at. R/Dr SZ Leiman, R/Dr David Berger, Rs/Drs
Steiner, Rs/Drs Sachat, progessors of Asronomy, Physics (R/Dr Herbert
Goldstein, likely author of you physics textbook), Topology...)

What is data is that the MB and the AhS agree that a minyan should
not be mixed between tefillin wearers and not.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RMB wrote: "What is data is that the MB and the AhS agree that a minyan should not be mixed between tefillin wearers and not."

Here's some "data" from R. Chaim (Howard) Jachter:

"Nevertheless, in many North American congregations on Chol Hamoed, some
wear Tefillin and others do not wear Tefillin in one Minyan. Are all these
congregations disregarding the Mishna Berura and the Aruch Hashulchan?

One might respond that they are not ignoring these eminent authorities. The
Gemara (ibid.) states that the coexistence of Shnei Batei Din Be'ir Echad ?
two distinct communities maintaining disparate practices in one community ?
does not violate Lo Titgodedu. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe
O.C. 1:158 and 159) notes that in this country Jews have gathered from the
various sections of Europe and continue the Halachic practices of their
former communities. Subsequent generations continue the practices of their
parents. Rav Moshe asserts that American Jewry constitutes ?a massive Shnei
Batei Din Be'ir Echad? and we do not violate Lo Titgodedu. For example, the
Rama (O.C. 493:3) writes that disparate observances of the Omer mourning
period in a single community violate Lo Titgodedu. Rav Moshe writes,
though, that this does not apply in cities like Brooklyn and Manhattan
where the situation of Shnei Batei Din Be'ir Echad pertains.
The same might apply to the dispute regarding Tefillin on Chol Hamoed. The
Mishna Berura and Aruch Hashulchan addressed a situation in Europe, which
radically differs from the situation in North America, as explained by Rav
Moshe. However, it appears that one violates Lo Titgodedu if he wears
Tefillin in public in Israel on Chol Hamoed."

Joseph


Sent from my iPhone
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On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 01:24:46AM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
: One might respond that they are not ignoring these eminent
: authorities. ...                                     Rav Moshe asserts
: that American Jewry constitutes "a massive Shnei Batei Din Be'ir Echad"
: and we do not violate Lo Titgodedu. For example, the Rama (O.C. 493:3)
: writes that disparate observances of the Omer mourning period in a single
: community violate Lo Titgodedu. Rav Moshe writes, though, that this does
: not apply in cities like Brooklyn and Manhattan where the situation of
: Shnei Batei Din Be'ir Echad pertains.
: The same might apply to the dispute regarding Tefillin on Chol Hamoed...

So, that answers the OP.

Next question.. How long are we /supposed/ to continue being 2 BD be'ir
echad, following the minhagim of our ancestral communities, rather
than invoking lo sisgodedu and combining into communal minhagim in our
current communities?

EY is nearly there WRT tefillin on ch"m, with only a few holdouts
like KAJ.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 16th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Tifferes: What type of discipline
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             does harmony promote?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 27, 2017, at 1:54 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
> Next question.. How long are we /supposed/ to continue being 2 BD be'ir
> echad, following the minhagim of our ancestral communities, rather
> than invoking lo sisgodedu and combining into communal minhagim in our
> current communities?

Considering modern mobility, the world has been made so much smaller that I
think the idea of strong communal minhagim imposed on all members of the
community may be a thing of the past but not of the future. 
Joseph

 

From: Akiva Miller via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

>> Even with *ancient*  communications, the whole world knew the correct
date of Rosh Chodesh Nisan  by the time Shavuos arrived. Nine weeks and
one day later, it is  Shavuos.

Rosh Chodesh Iyar is irrelevant. Rosh Chodesh Sivan is  irrelevant. If
you know Rosh Chodesh Nisan, then you know Shavuos. It's  just
arithmetic.

Obviously, uncertainty about R"C Nisan is NOT the  only reason to have
a second day of Shavuos. There must be other reasons too.  ...<<
Akiva Miller

 
 
>>>>>
 
I think one reason for keeping two days Shavuos is disagreement in the  
mesorah over which exact day the Torah was given.  
 
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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It has been taught that a man must recite 100 b?rachot daily.
There are different explanations why 100 and the following are a few:

Rabbi Mayer said: a person is obligated to recite 100 Brachos each day. In the Jerusalem Talmud we
learned: it was taught in the name of Rabbi Mayer; there is no Jew who does not fulfill one hundred
Mitzvos each day, as it was written: Now Israel, what does G-d your G-d ask of you? Do not read the
verse as providing for the word: ?what? (Mah); instead read it as including the word: ?one hundred?
(Mai?Eh). King David established the practice of reciting one hundred Brachos each day. When the
residents of Jerusalem informed him that one hundred Jews were dying everyday, he established this
requirement. It appears that the practice was forgotten until our Sages at the time of the Mishna and at the
time of the Gemara re-established it. 

There is an additional hint to the need to recite 100 blessings each day from the Prophets as it
is written, Micah, Chapter 6, Verse 8: What does G-d ask of you (Hebrew: mimcha). Mimcha in
Gematria is 100. There is also a hint to the need to recite 100 blessings from Scriptures as it is written in
Psalms, Chapter 128 Verse 4: Behold, thus shall the man be blessed who fears the Lord (the Hebrew
words: Ki Kain appear in the verse. The letters in those words total 100 in Gematria). 

I?d like to proffer another explanation. In most tests you take in school, a perfect score is 100 or an A+.
Hence, when reciting a hundred brachot a day, we come as close to perfection as possible. 


?If sin becomes an abomination to you, you will have a hundred percent victory over it.?

On 27/04/17 19:48, via Avodah wrote:
> I think one reason for keeping two days Shavuos is disagreement in the
> mesorah over which exact day the Torah was given.

The link between Shavuos and Matan Torah is  an artifact of our fixed 
calendar; when kidush hachodesh was going Shavuos was not always on zman 
matan toraseinu.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Areivim we were discussing how some activity could be labeled
yeihareig ve'al ya'avor. Along the way I wrote that it couldn't be
because the enviroment includes gender mixing. I concluded:

:                        Arayos isn't yeihareig ve'al ya'avor until it's
: actual relations. I'm not even sure that yeihareig ve'al ya'avor would
: apply to bi'ah with a willing penuyah (who is not a niddah).

Two people asked me off list to look at Sanhedrin 75a.

In it, a man was so love-sick for a woman that he would die unless he
could speak to her; at least through a fence. According to either
R' Yaaqov bar Idi or R Shemu'el bar Nachmeini, she was even a penuyah.
(Peligi bah... chad amar...)

But one could learn from that gemara that it would NOT be yeihareig
ve'al ya'avor:

    Bishloma according to the man da'amar she was an eishes ish,
    shapir.
    But according to the MdA she was penuyah -- mah kulei hai?

Two answers: R' Papa says because it's a pegam mishpachah, R' Acha
berei deR' Iqa says "kedei shelo yehu benos Yisrael perutzos ba'arayos".

So what's the exchange saying? That it is yeihareig ve'al ya'avor
because of the consequent peritzus? Or that bishloma an eishes ish
would be YvAY, but a penyah, who isn't, why wouldn't the guy be
allowed to speak to her?

As I said on Areivim "I am not even sure" which, because the gemara
could be taken either way.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 16th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Tifferes: What type of discipline
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             does harmony promote?


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