Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 41

Thu, 30 Mar 2017

• 1. Re: color issues (Micha Berger)
• 2. A Variation on the Four Sons (Cantor Wolberg)
• 3. Re: color issues (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: ISRAEL: Transgender Husband Says He's Now A Woman And Can't Give a Get (Prof. Levine)
• 5. super stores (saul newman)
• 6. Elijah's Cup (Cantor Wolberg)
• 7. Re: A Variation on the Four Sons (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: A Variation on the Four Sons (Cantor Wolberg)
• 9. Re: A Variation on the Four Sons (Zev Sero)
• 10. heichalos hatuma (Sholom Simon)
• 11. color issues (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Shul Practices (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Yom Geulah (Cantor Wolberg)

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 07:38:44AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: http://5tjt.com/seeing-red-2
: 
: is there room to say that MO doesn't hold by these chumradige psakim? or
: just that the people just don't ask

There are two issues: chuqas hagoy (see the SA and the Rama) and tzeni'us.
It is interesting that the SA is not making this a tzeni'us thing.

RMF (IM YD 1:81) considers red clothing to be permissable -- neither
problem rises to the level of issur.
But somewhat peritzus, and so, not a great idea. (Mutar but should be
avoided?)

According to word-of-mouth, RYKaminecki held similarly. (See Divrei
Chakhamim EhE, 256:46
<http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20287&;st=&pgnum=259>)

R' Elyashiv (according to Halkhos bas Yisrael vol 1) holds that it's only
bright red, not crimson or other reds. RSZA (Divrei Chakhamim ad loc,
still a trader in word-of-mouth, often having no citations) limits it
differently, only if it's the main color of the garment.

RYHH (who I expect will be emailing RSN and I about this when this digest
reaches him, unless erev Pesach keeps the Benei Banim from reading
Avodah) in Contemporary Tzeni'us, notes that Rashi on Bereishis 49:11
("eni asono") refers to a woman wearing bright clothes to attract a man
in the context of Yehudah's berakhah -- ie as a good thing.

In short, it seems to me that the mid- and late-20-th cent American
consensus was that the problem isn't red in and of itself, but a red
that is considered sexy rather than simply aesthetic. And therefore
it's all about not trying to be sexy, rather than red clothes themselves.
Whereas the Israeli posqim appear to outright prohibit a garment where
the base color (as opposed to accents) is actually bright red.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org   through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger

We might ask at the Seder ? whose questions
are the ?fier kashes?? Are they the questions of
the wise son, wicked son or simple son? Upon
examination, they are the questions of the simple
son for these are simple questions. These are 
questions of ?mah zot.? ?What is this?? They are
simple questions of what and why. 

It seems strange the Haggadah should put into the
mouths of our children the questions of the simple 
son. Would it not have been better to put into their
mouths the questions of the wise son?

An answer give that I find profound is that we must
realize that the four sons of the Haggadah are four
ty[es of Jews who did not always live at the same 
time. They actually represent different epochs and
different ages. There was a time long ago when Jews
asked the questions of the wise son. They were eager
and avid for the word of God. That was a time when
everyone studied talmud and spent hours a day in 
study. It was an age when the question of the chacham
was predominant.

And there was also an age when the questions of the 
rasha predominated. These were periods of total 
assimilation?periods which sought to submerge, 
drown and eradicate the Jewish way of life. There 
were many who had renounced Judaism. Little time
is wasted in the Haggadah in debating with the rasha
because in the end, he must find his own answer.

But the third son, the tam, the simple son causes deep
concern, for his are the questions which grow out of 
ignorance.  His are the questions of our day?that simple
naive but heartbreaking question of "mah zot? what is this?
What is it all about? Unfortunately, we encounter many of
our students, as well as their parents, who are totally ignorant
of Judaism and all they can ask is Mah Zot?

?Klieg, Klieg, Klieg?Du bist a Nar". 
Yiddish saying

R' Saul Newman linked to:
http://5tjt.com/seeing-red-2/?utm_content=buffera376b&;utm_me
dium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

and then he asked: <<<is there room to say that MO doesn't hold by these
chumradige psakim? or just that the people just don't ask >>>

I'm not convinced that "psakim" is a correct word to use in this context.
That article cited many different views, and (in my opinion) it is murky at
best to say that there is an issur against wearing red nowadays. Therefore,
the question I would ask is:

Is there room to say that crazies invent these chumradige psakim? or just
that the people just don't ask?

Akiva Miller
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At 04:34 PM 3/27/2017, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>You should have included a link to the original article that sparked 
>this discussion.

The link to the original article was in my post on Areivim. It is
<http://tinyurl.com/m5m6q8m>

In any case a simple google search will bring up the original article.

YL 

in regard the economic benefits of small vs super stores,  see the tale of
matza machines , around page 70, wherein the poskim debated the economic
impact on hand matza bakers of these innovative machines, and whether
cheaper matzot trumped unemployed bakers...

http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/pdf/BVK_Passover_2017.pdf
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Why do we have Elijah?s Cup? Why not Moses?s cup or Abraham?s cup 
or Isaiah?s cup?

As we know, Pesach (especially the Seder) is the holiday, par excellence,
where the family is closest together. No other ritual in Jewish life has been
invested with such a peculiar charm and has created an atmosphere of 
such warm, wholesome family union as has the Seder. More than any other
holiday, it has engendered a spirit of mutual understanding and appreciation
between old and young that makes the Seder a vital pedagogical experience.

Now the fascinating answer why Elijah was chosen. He was the messenger
of God, appointed to herald the era of Moshiach when the Jewish people l 
and all peoples throughout the world shall be free and emancipated. 
Indeed, Elijah was the champion of family unity as well as the crusader
of universal redemption. When Elisha approached him with an earnest plea
to become his disciple and told him that he was prepared to forsake his 
mother and father in order to follow him, Elijah commanded him, ?Leich shuv,
Go and return.? (Kings I <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I&
gt;: Ch.19 vs.20). Obviously, in those days, it was customary
for students and disciples to abandon their homes and follow their masters.

The great prophet Elijah was the first to reject categorically this misguided custom.
He warned Elisha to return to his mother and father, indicating that his devotion to 
his parents would in no way interfere with assuming the mantle of leadership.  On 
the contrary, true liberation comes from a life that has struck deep roots in a 
closely-knit family environment, where there prevails a union of hearts between 
parents and children and where positive attitudes and good relationships are 
fostered. 

For this reason, Malachi, in depicting the supreme achievement of Elijah?s prophecy,
stresses the point, V?heishiv leiv ovos al bonim v?leiv bonim al avosom; And He shall 
turn back the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to 
their fathers.? (Malachi 3:24)

Elijah was therefore chosen by our Baal Haggadah as the Biblical hero to be singled
out at the Seder table for special mention and glorification. For the spirit of Elijah
symbolizes the double aspect of the Passover holiday ? the universal message of
liberty and our historic devotion to the integrity of family life, which is inseparable to
the ultimate redemption. 


Faith takes the sufferings of the past and present
and molds them into the happiness of the future.
Anonymous
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On 27/03/17 21:06, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
> We might ask at the Seder ? whose questions
> are the ?fier kashes?? Are they the questions of
> the wise son, wicked son or simple son? Upon
> examination, they are the questions of the simple
> son for these are simple questions. These are
> questions of ?mah zot.? ?What is this?? They are
> simple questions of what and why.

Actually they are not the questions of any of the first three sons. 
They are the questions that the father prompts the fourth son to ask.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

Zev Sero wrote:
Actually they are not the questions of any of the first three sons. They are the questions that the father prompts the fourth son to ask.

If you carefully read my posting, you will see that I never wrote they are the questions of the first three sons.
I wrote they are the questions of the SIMPLE son.
What is your source that they are the questions "that the father prompts the fourth son to ask?"



> On Mar 28, 2017, at 7:52 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> 
> On 27/03/17 21:06, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
>> We might ask at the Seder ? whose questions
>> are the ?fier kashes?? Are they the questions of
>> the wise son, wicked son or simple son? Upon
>> examination, they are the questions of the simple
>> son for these are simple questions. These are
>> questions of ?mah zot.? ?What is this?? They are
>> simple questions of what and why.
> 
> Actually they are not the questions of any of the first three sons. They are the questions that the father prompts the fourth son to ask.
> 
> -- 
> Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
> z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

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On 28/03/17 09:23, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
> Zev Sero wrote:
> Actually they are not the questions of any of the first three sons. They
> are the questions that the father prompts the fourth son to ask.
>
> If you carefully read my posting, you will see that I never wrote they
> are the questions of the first three sons.

You certainly did.  You asked *which* of the first three is asking them, 
which means you took it for granted that it is one of those three.

> I wrote they are the questions of the SIMPLE son.

Who is one of those three sons.

> What is your source that they are the questions "that the father prompts
> the fourth son to ask?"

The plain meaning of the words.  "They poured him a second cup, and here 
the son asks his father; and if the son has no wit, then his father 
teaches him: How is this night different from all other nights?"


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

Off line, I had the following exchange with R Micha, and, with his 
persmission, I am putting it up here, edited for brevity/clarity.

I wrote:

A friend and I were learning a piece from the Nesivos Sholom, and, as 
his wont, his last paragraph seems to go off on a completely 
different tangent than the rest of the piece.

The one we were reading last night introduces concepts I've never 
heard of before -- and I was wondering if you could help me out.

He was talking about parshas Parah (which was already a tangent) and 
using that to show that we must have complete faith that every letter 
in the torah is to help make us holy (just as all the keilim in the 
Mishkan do so, and just as we don't fully understand why the 
repetition from Terumah-Tetzaveh and Vayakhel-Pekudei for all these 
keilim<-- that's how he started this tangent).

Then the first sentence of the last paragraph is this:

U'mishum kach kori'im parshas para lifnei chag ha'pesach, d'asyia (is 
brought) b'chesed l'avraham hakdumon (is that a sefer?) she'shloshim 
yom kodem chag hapesach motzi'im yehudi mi'shloshim heichalos hatuma, 
b'chol yom yotzei mi'heichal echad shel tuma, ad she-bechag hapesach 
yitaher l'gamrei v'yihiye ro'i l'kabal ha'kedusha v'ha'haorah shel 
pesach shebo nihye chelek m'am ha'nivchar, v'kriyas haparsha 
misogeles l'taher ish yehudi mi'tumaso.

I actually think I do understand the Hebrew.

But what is a "heichel hatuma" (clearly not the 50 levels of 
tuma).  And there are 30 of them?  And this concept of getting 
purified for 30 days _before_ Pesach Rishon is a new one to me.

==============

R Micha wrote back (again, edited):

30 days before Pesach we learn hilkhos Pesach. Connected?

The Zohar Bereishis and then again on Pequdei discuss heikhalos 
hatum'ah. But I don't know Zohar, so I went to chabadpedia.co.il. 
Their entry for heikhalos hatum'ah is simply "see qelipah". But upon 
chasing that link, the qelipah entry doesn't contain the letters 
"heikhel" (ctrl-F check).

The little I can see from the Zohar is that a navi sheqer gets his 
prophecy from the heikhalos hatum'ah, and that Noach, upon getting 
drunk, opened their doors.

But Eimeq haMmelekh says there are 4 heilakhos, not 30. http://j.mp/2n9paMd

And Reishis Chokhmah, translated the Zohar Pequdei, says there are 7 
http://www.sefaria.org/Otzar_Midrashim,_Hekhalot,_The_S
even_Palaces_of_Impurity?lang=bi 
and that gives definitions and names.

R' Yaakov Haber (of Ramat Bet Shemesh and Mosaic Press) points out 
that it's 50 shaarei tum'ah, not madreigos -- gates, not levels....

He proves that there are 50 gates that allow us to connect to 
qedushah.  49 of them were blocked up, and therefor tamei. One gate 
we maintained -- distinct Jewish identiy (language, dress, names). 
There were therefore 49 gates to clean out, to turn the gates from 
tum'ah to taharah to qedushah.

======================

(again: gates, not levels)

Thoughts, anyone?

-- Sholom

<<http://5tjt.com/seeing-red-2/?utm_content=buffera376b&;utm_
medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

is there room to say that MO doesn't hold by these chumradige psakim? or
just that the people just don't ask >>

I would venture that most MO would feel that the issue is not relevant in a
modern society.
As discussed is the article one of the major objections to a woman wearing
red is in calling attention to herself. Today with O women being lecturers,
politicians, judges etc it is difficult to claim that the color of their
clothing brings attention to them.

When Nechama Lebovitz gave public shiurim some charedi poskim allowed it
only if she was behind a mechitza. I assume a MO posek would have no
trouble just listening to her shiur.  I have been in mixed audiences for
shiurim by R. Soloveichik and Rav A. Lichtenstein which would never happen
with a charedi rav.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Visiting a shul questions-actual practices and sources appreciated:
* Would your shul allow a guest to read his own Aliya?
* Would your shul allow a guest to say his own nussach of kaddish (not as shatz)?
* Would your shul (in galut) allow the shatz not to say baruch hashem l'olam in maariv?
* Would your shul allow a guest to say 13 middot aloud by Tachanun(if local practice is not to)?
* Would the answers be different if requested before prayer (vs. gabbai intervention at time of event)?
KT
Joel Rich

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With Pesach around the corner I am reminded of something
I learned years ago in the name of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik.
There is a distinction between geulah and yeshua. The term 
geulah is applicable to occurrences brought forth by Hashem only; 
a yeshua may come through the media of a sh?liach or sh?lichim 
whom God has inspired to leadership in time of distress.
Thus we find no individual, not even Moshe Rabenu, associated 
with Geulas Mitzrayim. That redemption came about through the
Almighty?s direct intervention (?am-zu ga?alta.. Ex:15:13). 
Historically geulah happened once in our past ? at yetzias Mitzrayim.
To only one other event is the word geulah applied; and that is yet
to come leosid lovo when God will send Moshiach Tzidkenu. 
Yeshuot, on the other hand, occurred frequently in our history. One
of the great yeshuot happened more than 2,000 years ago when
the chashmonaim rebelled against the Syrians and were victorious. 
Another distinction: for geulah we give thanks to the Almighty only;
for a yeshuah we may add also our gratitude to those who were the
sh?luchei haShem.


?God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners.? 
? S?ren Kierkegaard <http://w
ww.goodreads.com/author/show/6172.S_ren_Kierkegaard>, The Journals
of Kierkegaard <http://www.goodreads.co
m/work/quotes/6568732>



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