Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 37

Tue, 21 Mar 2017

• 1. children of Avos (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: KaVuA and Kol DePoRish (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 3. Pesach - Lecithin does not render chocolate non-KLP for Ashkenasim (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Can one add water to a hot water urn on yom tov if this might cause the indicator light to turn on? (Professor L. Levine)
• 5. Re: children of Avos (Simon Montagu)
• 6. Is any meat today kosher? (Simon Montagu)
• 7. Re: Pesach - Lecithin does not render chocolate non-KLP for Ashkenasim (Zev Sero)
• 8. How to become a kohein (Sholom Simon)
• 9. Re: Is any meat today kosher? (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: How to become a kohein (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Is any meat today kosher? (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Is any meat today kosher? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Is any meat today kosher? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Is any meat today kosher? (Simon Montagu)

<<Yaaqov was born in 2108 and goes to Mitzrayim in 2238, he's 130. Avraham
was "va'adoni zaqein" at 99, so however aging workd for the avos, we can
sure 130 was well past surprisingly old age for fathering children.>>

But Avraham had children much later with Hagar. If we take the midrash that
Yitzchak was 38 at the time of the akeidah and that Sara dies shortly
afterwards and that Avraham then married Hagar then Avraham was at least
140 when he started having another 6 children. Assuming they were not
sextuplets he was close to 150 for the last one.

Eli Turkel
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I explained theYesod of Kol KaVuA and Kol DePoRish in the following way
- we only follow the Rov if our Safek is caused by a TaAruvos.
The fellow who buys meat and can no longer remember if he bought Neveilah
meat for the dog or Kosher for the family, has a Safek which is not
prompted by a TaAruvos, we therefore cannot use Rov.

R Micha suggests that my analysis is flawed because the Halachos of Rov
differ WRT TaAroves
and Kol DeParish, and even WRT Parish, between Ruba Deleisa KaMan and Ruba
DeLeisa KaMan.

R Micha, please give some examples to illustrate what you mean.

R Micha also suggests Rov and KaVuA are readily understood as per
http://rygb.blogspot.com/2017/03/r-gedalia-nadels-explanation-of-ka
vua.html;
Nobel laureate R/Prof Aumann's theory based on "Moral Hazard"

Or R' Aqiva Eiger's explanation
Paskening with an unknown Metzi'us (parish)
and how to act when there is an existing pesaq, but it's unknown (qavu'ah)

Honestly, R Micha - these are such complicated confusing guidelines

When ordinary clear headed people look at it they are greatly confused and
struck by what appears to be an unanswerable question - the statistics of
the meat being K or not K are identical be it that the meat is found in the
street or we forgot which shop we entered to make our purchase.
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<<Milk used to be a single product without additives. The only worry is
that something got inadvertently mixed in.  If milk has additives, or is
pasteurised or bottled on equipment that could easily be processing
chamets as well, then I would think one surely needs a hechsher lepesach. >>

Isn't (almost) all milk pasteurized?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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From today's OU Halacha Yomis


Q. Can one add water to a hot water urn on yom tov if this might cause the indicator light to turn on?


A. Although cooking is permitted on yom tov, one is not permitted to light
a new fire. Therefore, one is not permitted to add cold water to an urn,
since this might cause the light to turn off or on. Rav Belsky, zt"l said
that one may not even ask a non-Jew to add cold water to the urn. Although
turning on the indicator light is an unintended consequence, and strictly
speaking one is permitted to ask a non-Jew to do a permitted activity even
if this will cause an unintended consequence that is forbidden (psik
reisha), in this case it is not permitted. Rav Belsky explained that there
are two heaters in an electric urn. The larger heater turns on when the urn
is filled with cold water. Once the proper temperature is reached, the
first heater turns off and a second smaller heater turns on to maintain the
temperature. When one adds cold water to an urn, one is not only changing
the status of the indicator light, but that person is also turning on the
larger heater. Since the inte
 nt of adding cold water to the urn is to cook the water, one cannot
 consider the turning on of the heater to be an unintended consequence. To
 appropriately add water to an urn on yom tov one should boil the water on
 the stove and then pour it into the urn.


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On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 12:44 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> But Avraham had children much later with Hagar. If we take the midrash
> that Yitzchak was 38 at the time of the akeidah and that Sara dies shortly
> afterwards and that Avraham then married Hagar then Avraham was at least
> 140 when he started having another 6 children. Assuming they were not
> sextuplets he was close to 150 for the last one.
>
>
With or without the midrash, even if the akeida wasn't shortly before Sarah
died, we know that she lived to be 127, so Abraham was then 137 and the
rest follows as you wrote.
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http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/is-any-meat-today-kosher/

Rabbi David Rosen served as the senior rabbi of the largest Orthodox Jewish
congregation in South Africa, and as Chief Rabbi of Ireland. He is
currently the American Jewish Committees International Director of
Interreligious Affairs, based in Jerusalem.

From the article:

When I served on the Cape Beth Din in South Africa, I had to join my
colleagues in visiting the slaughterhouses and checking up on the shochtim.
The kosher slaughterhouse in Cape Town was part of a general slaughterhouse
complex enabling me to view the process of killing animals in both places.
What I saw convinced me that while non-kosher slaughter was quicker and
more ?aesthetic? than kosher slaughter, it failed in its claim to be more
compassionate in its methods.

...

Kashrut involves more than just the way the animal?s throat is cut and the
checking of its vital organs. Kashrut involves the whole relationship
between humans and the animal world. Indeed our sages say specifically in
relation to shechitah that ?the mitzvot were only given in order to refine
people? (Genesis Rabbah, 34; Leviticus Rabbah, 13.)

If at point Z the animal?s throat was cut the right way and its internal
organs checked, but from A to Y all injunctions and prohibitions have been
ignored and desecrated, how can that product really be called kosher?

Why is there virtually no official rabbinic dissent let alone opposition to
such practices?

See the linked URL for more
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/is-any-meat-today-kosher/
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On 21/03/17 07:13, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> <<Milk used to be a single product without additives. The only worry is
> that something got inadvertently mixed in.  If milk has additives, or is
> pasteurised or bottled on equipment that could easily be processing
> chamets as well, then I would think one surely needs a hechsher lepesach. >>
>
> Isn't (almost) all milk pasteurized?

Exactly.  Therefore the days when it was a simple product are long gone.

Though with a pasteuriser one could argue that it never processes 
anything but milk, so it's not a problem.  But bottling equipment is 
used for all sorts of things, especially nowadays when efficiency is key 
and equipment is never allowed to lie idle.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

><<< But avraham was *not* past fathering children at 99.  He fathered 8
>more when he was in his late 130s/early 140s, and there's no indication tat
>this was any kind of miracle or surprise. >>>

Don't we also have an old-age issue re: Yocheved (bas Levi)?  If she 
was born "between the gates" then she was 130 (?) when Moshe was 
born.  I vaguely recall that ibn Ezra (?) used that argument to prove 
that she was not born between the gates.  But if she was born 
significantly after that, then (naive question) how old was Levi when 
Yocheved was born?

In short, I guess I'm asking: how many years passed  between the 
births of Levi and Moshe?

-- Sholom 

There's nothing new here.  This is the same old pack of quarter-truths 
and outright lies that Rosen has been peddling for years.  This is of 
course the same ocher yisroel who founded the so-called "Rabbis for 
Human Rights", which supports our enemies and actively and deliberately 
helps them endanger Jewish lives.

> If at point Z the animal?s throat was cut the right way and its
> internal organs checked, but from A to Y all injunctions and
> prohibitions have been ignored and desecrated, how can that product
> really be called kosher?

Because even if he were right about issurim being committed, they could 
have no effect whatsoever on kashrus.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On 21/03/17 10:02, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
> In short, I guess I'm asking: how many years passed  between the births
> of Levi and Moshe?

175 years.  Levi was six years older than Yosef.  When Yaacov and his 
sons came down to Egypt Yosef was 39, so Levi was 45.  Moshe was born 
130 years later.   Levi lived 92 years in Egypt, so the youngest 
Yocheved could possibly have been is 38.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On 21/03/17 11:33, Saul Guberman wrote:
> Tell us what the quarter truths and outright lies are.

Read the article, and pretty much every statement of fact isn't.

Most egregiously, his claim that RFM banned foie gras and veal because 
of TBC is an outright lie.  RMF's understanding of the metsius was 
completely wrong, and his issur was based entirely on the supposed fact 
that treifos of all kinds are common in veal calves.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 02:01:40PM +0200, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
: http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/is-any-meat-today-kosher/
: Rabbi David Rosen...
: From the article:
:> Kashrut involves more than just the way the animal's throat is cut and the
:> checking of its vital organs. Kashrut involves the whole relationship
:> between humans and the animal world. Indeed our sages say specifically in
:> relation to shechitah that "the mitzvot were only given in order to refine
:> people" (Genesis Rabbah, 34; Leviticus Rabbah, 13.)

This isn't true. Tza'ar baalei chaim does not make an animal treif.

One may ask questions about whether buying meat and keeping the ZBC
industry lucrative is mesayei'ah, or at least something we should be
avoiding as a minhag chassidus. See IM 4:92:2
<http://issuu.com/silvergleam/docs/igrot_moshe_on_animal_cruelty/2?e=0
>,
where RMF argues that it's tzaar baalei chaim to raise white veal. But
he does not assur the meat once shechted.

If it were true that the number of fatted ducks or geese for foie gras
or calves raised in boxes for their white veal who end up being tereifos
really is ignorable, there is no kashrus issue. And if many are tereifos,
then we have to wonder why those checking at the shlachthois aren't
rejecting them. Can we really limit to the usual rule of just checking
the lungs on beheimos when there is an iqa rei'usa for other problems? My
phrasing "if it were" tells you what I think (in short, I believe R/Dr
Tendler's research in the subject), but I do not see value in arguing
the metzi'us here.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 12:47:32AM +0200, Simon Montagu wrote:
: Where does he say it does? His whole point is that "kashrut" is a larger
: concept that whether a specific animal is treif or not.

So you say he's not talking about ksharus when he says the word kashrus.

But his implication is still that there is an issur cheftza on the
resulting meat. That hast yet to be proven. There might be an
issur derabbanan if there is a communal notion of mesayeiah -- if
the frum community supporting the white veal industry is en mass
mesayeia ZBC. I don't know if what's going on can create an
issur on me personally buying the meat.

But to us the word "kosher" would imply the meat may not be eaten.
Even if sypporting the industry is mesayeia, it would not prohibit
the meat once obtained. (And what if I obtained it as a gift, or
a guest at someone's se'udah, and mesayeia is a non-issue for me.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> This isn't true. Tza'ar baalei chaim does not make an animal treif.

Where does he say it does? His whole point is that "kashrut" is a larger
concept that whether a specific animal is treif or not.


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