Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 31

Mon, 13 Mar 2017

• 1. Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Professor L. Levine)
• 2. Purim Q & A (Professor L. Levine)
• 3. Re: How to become a kohein (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Shushan Purim minyan of "unwalled Jews" in an walled city (David Cohen)
• 11. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Anoos (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: eilu v'eilu (Micha Berger)

From

http://tinyurl.com/jdpxwac


Some people claim, with certainty, that Purim will be the only Yom Tov
after Moshiach comes<https://www.ou.o
rg/holidays/purim/purim_is_forever/>.

But is it really so simple? No.

 It is a matter of  serious disagreement.<http://
 halachayomit.co.il/en/ReadHalacha.aspx?HalachaID=203> See also
 here<http://hebrewboo
 ks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37038&;hilite=51a8e63e-f055-4196-9cb0-aa1d
 9b353d05&st=%D7%9B%D7%9C+%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A2%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D+%D
 7%A2%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D+%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%91%D7%98%D7%9C+%D7%97%D
 7%95%D7%A5+%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D>.
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See

https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/purim/purim_q_a.pdf


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Rav Teitz wrote:

> The Netziv, in B'midbar 26:5, writes that the sh'vatim
> undoubtedly had children in Mitzrayim, but they were not given
> "family names" because they were not born in EY; rather, they
> were subsumed into the existing families of that shevet. I
> would imagine that the same would be true of the non-kohanim:
> they were attached to assorted mishmaros of Levi'im, perhaps on
> a basis of geographical proximity.

Yaakov and his family arrived in Mitzrayim in the year 2238. According to
Mizrachi, cited by ArtScroll Rashi on Shemos 6:16, the last of his sons to
die was Levi, in the year 2332.

If I'm understanding Rav Teitz correctly, this leaves almost a hundred
years during which Levi lived in Mitzrayim and could have had other
children. These other children, however, were not as significant, precisely
because of their foreign birth, and only Gershon, Kehas and Merari were
named in the later censuses, such as in Bemidbar 3. The others were
legitimate Leviim, but their genetic lineage is not explicit, and they
assimilated into the other families of leviim, and got counted accordingly.

I am fascinated by this, and I have to wonder: Can we extend this logic to
Yaakov himself? Is it possible that he had additional children in Mitzraim,
and they simply aren't listed?

Akiva Miller
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On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 02:57:49PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: From
: http://tinyurl.com/jdpxwac

:> Some people claim, with certainty, that Purim will be the only Yom Tov
:> after Moshiach comes<https://www.ou.org/holidays/purim/purim_is_forever/>.

I heard a nice derashah-y take on that gemara.

Le'asid lavo, everyone will have R' Chanina ben Dosa's attitude, that
Hashem allowing oil to burn or His letting vinegar burn is all the
same thing.

All of Nakh and the other holidays focus on the miraculous -- the neis
nigleh. It's not that they will be taken away, but they'll all look
like Megilas Esther and Purim. Halakhah is eternal; the other holidays
will remain. But their messages will be those of Purim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
mi...@aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard

At 03:24 PM 3/12/2017, you wrote:
>All of Nakh and the other holidays focus on the miraculous -- the neis
>nigleh. It's not that they will be taken away, but they'll all look
>like Megilas Esther and Purim. Halakhah is eternal; the other holidays
>will remain. But their messages will be those of Purim.

And what are the messages of Purim that are so different from the 
other holidays. Are not all of our "special" days (and even our 
ordinary days) tied to HaShem's special connection to the Jewish people?

YL 
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On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 03:29:33PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: And what are the messages of Purim that are so different from the
: other holidays. Are not all of our "special" days (and even our
: ordinary days) tied to HaShem's special connection to the Jewish
: people?

Purim involves seeing the miracle in the ordinary.

When we stop seeing the difference between miracle and ordinary, they
all become equally about G-d's Hand in history. None of this "just as
He gave mon in the desert, so too He supports us through granting out
successes at our jobs." That message will already be known and
internalized. Mon, my job, all the same thing. It's all "Purim", so-called
randomness that isn't really random.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org        than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org   then what need do you have for tomorrow?
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

At 03:33 PM 3/12/2017, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 03:29:33PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
>: And what are the messages of Purim that are so different from the
>: other holidays. Are not all of our "special" days (and even our
>: ordinary days) tied to HaShem's special connection to the Jewish
>: people?
>
>Purim involves seeing the miracle in the ordinary.

I do not believe that the Jews at the time of Purim saw the miracle 
as ordinary at all.  It was clear in the end that HaShem saved the 
Jews through the efforts of Esther and Mordechai.

The megilla tells us  more than once about how Haman was defeated, 
and how Mordechai became second to the king.  I am sure that all Jews 
recognized these events as extraordinary and miraculous.

YL  
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Four mitzvot were created by three different people: Ester created the 
Megilla reading, the people created the party and sending gifts to 
friends, and Mordechai added in giving tzeddakah. While the mitzvot 
invented by Mordechai and Ester are similar to Biblical mitzvot, the 
people's response was quite the secular invention: a party.

In addition, given the way people act towards the modern day miracle 
known as the State of Israel, I can see that people (then) acted as if 
what happened was only politics, tactics, strategy. Of course part of 
that is the Zionist in me talking. OTOH it is a simple truth that people 
go to great lengths to deny any hint of the Divine in what happened in 
1948. People being people, I can imagine similar responses back then.

Lastly when people say "It is clear" that usually means "I believe".

Ben

On 3/12/2017 11:55 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> I do not believe that the Jews at the time of Purim saw the miracle as 
> ordinary at all.  It was clear in the end that HaShem saved the Jews 
> through the efforts of Esther and Mordechai. 

On 3/12/2017 11:55 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> At 03:33 PM 3/12/2017, Micha Berger wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 03:29:33PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> : And what are the messages of Purim that are so different from the
>> : other holidays. Are not all of our "special" days (and even our
>> : ordinary days) tied to HaShem's special connection to the Jewish
>> : people?
>>
>> Purim involves seeing the miracle in the ordinary.
>
> I do not believe that the Jews at the time of Purim saw the miracle as 
> ordinary at all.  It was clear in the end that HaShem saved the Jews 
> through the efforts of Esther and Mordechai.
>
> The megilla tells us  more than once about how Haman was defeated, and 
> how Mordechai became second to the king.  I am sure that all Jews 
> recognized these events as extraordinary and miraculous.

I'm sure they did not.  Consider the mefarshim on "ratzui l'rov echav".  
Surely had they recognized the events as extraordinary and miraculous, 
that "rov" would have been "kol".

Never underestimate the power of human denial.  There are still Jews 
today, even Orthodox Jews, who refuse to see the extraordinary and 
miraculous in Israel's victory in the Six Day War.

Lisa

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

In a scene that is undoubtedly occurring in workplace mincha minyanim
throughout Jerusalem today, the minyan consists almost entirely of
commuters from the suburbs, as most of the Jerusalem residents are at home
celebrating Purim and are not at work today.

In the minyan that I just attended, out of about 20 people, there was just
one Yerushalmi present.  Fortunately, he agreed to server as shaliach
tzibbur, and of course he said "Al haNissim" in chazaras hashatz.

But what if he had not been there?  Is it possible that for a minyan taking
place in Jerusalem, the public tefilah -- the chazaras hashatz -- should
include "Al haNissim" even if none of the individuals in that minyan are
saying it in their own personal shmoneh esrei?

If the answer to that question is negative, what about a minyan where there
are one or more Yerushalmim present, but none of them are willing or able
to serve as shaliach tzibbur?  Certainly, if these few individual
Yerushalmim were visiting a shul outside Jerusalem today, nobody would
expect the shatz to say "Al haNisim" on their behalf.  But would things be
different in this case, where the Yerushalmim are on their "home turf"?

Shushan Purim sameach,
D.C.
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At 11:05 PM 3/12/2017, Ben Waxman wrote:
>Four mitzvot were created by three different people: Ester created 
>the Megilla reading, the people created the party and sending gifts 
>to friends, and Mordechai added in giving tzeddakah. While the 
>mitzvot invented by Mordechai and Ester are similar to Biblical 
>mitzvot, the people's response was quite the secular invention: a party.

I do not know where you get "four mitzvos were created by *three* 
different people".   The mitzvos of Purim were instituted by Torah 
authorities.  I would assume the Sanhedrin, if it was functioning at 
the time.

A party need not be a secular event if it is tied to torah 
values.  Is a bris or a Chassana a secular event? They have  some 
aspects of a "party,"  but  if they are conducted according to 
halacha, they are not secular events.


>In addition, given the way people act towards the modern day miracle 
>known as the State of Israel, I can see that people (then) acted as 
>if what happened was only politics, tactics, strategy. Of course 
>part of that is the Zionist in me talking. OTOH it is a simple truth 
>that people go to great lengths to deny any hint of the Divine in 
>what happened in 1948. People being people, I can imagine similar 
>responses back then.

To the best of my knowledge everyone sees the creation of the State 
of Israel as an exceptional event, although not all consider it a 
plus.  While I am not a spokesman for Satmar,  I do not think that 
the Satmar rebbe considered that the founding of the State of Israel 
"was only politics,  tactics, strategy."  He felt that it was an 
exceptional event that was not a plus.

Concerning Zionism I strongly recommend reading 
<https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/zion_or_zionism.pdf>Zion 
or Zionism: Rav Shimon Schwab


>Lastly when people say "It is clear" that usually means "I believe".

Is it not true that all assertions are actually based to some extent 
on belief.  How do I know that the world as I see it is the way it is 
in realty?  Is this not belief?

YL
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A person who does the wrong thing be'oneis is pardoned, and a person who
it prevented from doing the right thing be'oneis is counted as though he
acted -- his omission of actually acting is "pardoned".

----------------------------
Or it could be he is not scored as being mvatel an aseeh but not credited as doing it.
KT
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On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 10:30:46PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote:
: On Sun, Jan 08, 2017 at 01:43:24PM -0500, M Cohen via Avodah wrote:
: : Interesting insights on eilu v'eilu (and other issues)
: : From R Moshe Shapiro zt'l
: : <http://j.mp/2j7eeOa> [On scribd.com -micha]
:
: It is quite relevant to RZL and my slow-speed discussion on the topic.
: Particularly, starting with pg 4, col 2, the par. that begins "This
: brought up the subject of Eilu veAilu".
...
: In contrast, RDE ascribes a multiple Truths view to the Yam Shel
: Shelomo (BQ, haqdamah; fn 22), the Ritva (Eiruvin 13b "EvE", fn 23;
: which we discussed at length) and the French chakhamim in the
: Ritva, R' Yaakov Kamenecki (Emes leYaaqov Devarim 25:1 pg 616,
: quoted in the notes in fn 24).

Also to add to the data collection about pluralistic understandings
of eilu va'eilu  and how the Ritva et all took it, we have R'
Michael Rosenseig's article in Tradition 1992, "Elu ve-Elu Divre Elokim
Hayyim: Halakhic Pluralism and Theories of Controversy"
<http://www.lookstein.org/articles/elu_ve_elu.htm>

Teaser:

    At the same time, if we accept the general scheme developed by Neziv,
    it is conceivable that even the mizvah of talmud Torah would extend
    only to that class of minority viewpoints that retain the status of
    or Torah due to some normative or at least conceptual benefit that
    they may yet provide. This stance is certainly open to debate. In
    the twentieth century, for example, R. Moshe Feinstein in one of
    his responsa eloquently argues on the basis of elu ve-elu divre
    Elokim hayyim that in the realm of talmud Torah and for purposes
    of birkat ha-Torah, minority positions are absolutely equivalent to
    normative halakhot. He goes so far as to suggest that even God and
    his heavenly retinue (metivta de-rekia) spend time discoursing and
    studying these doctrines in the context of talmud Torah [12].

    The possibility of real multiple halakhic truths does not really
    emerge from Neziv's scheme. This approach is, however, implied by
    other sources, Rashi for example, seems to affirm this doctrine [13]:

        When a debate revolves around the attribution of a doctrine to a
        particular individual, there is only room for one truth. However,
        when two Amorairn enter into a halakhic dispute, each arguing
        the halakhic merits of his view, each drawing upon comparisons
        to establish the authenticity of his perspective, there is
        no absolute truth and falsehood. About such issues one can
        declare that both represent the view of the living God. On
        some occasions one perspective will prove more authentic, and
        under other circumstances the other view will appear to be more
        compelling. The effectiveness of particular rationales shift as
        conditions of their application change even if only subtly.

    This more ambitious approach to our topic is explicated by Ritva,
    Maharal and Maharshaleach providing their own nuances and subtleties
    of formulation, each requiring a conceptual underpining to justify
    this difficult concept. Ritva (Eruvin 13b) cites the inherent paradox
    of this theme as raised by the Tosafists [14]:

        The Rabbis of France asked: How is it possible for conflicting
        views to both represent the truth? They responded as follows:

        When Moshe ascended to receive the Torah, it was demonstrated
        to him that every matter was subject to forty-nine lenient and
        forty-nine stringent approaches. When he queried about this,
        God responded that the scholars of each generation were given
        the authority to decide among these perspectives in order to
        establish the normative halakha.

    His response posits that a full range of halakhic optionspossibly
    even of equal statuswas revealed to Moshe and sanctioned as hefza
    shel Torah. License was provided to the scholars of every generation
    to pursue what they deemed to be the most accurate pesak on the
    basis of accepted halakhic methodology [15]. The clear implication
    of this formulation is that for those scholars halakhic conclusions
    are not arbitrary but based on rigorous analysis and, consequently,
    the decisions become normative for that generation [16].


    12 R. Moshe Feinstein, lggerot Moshe (New York, 1982), 4:9, 24.

    13 Rashi, Ketubot 57a, s.v. "[qm"l]"

    14 This view is apparently based on the formulation in Massekhet
    Soferim (16:6). See Talmud Yerushalmi Sanhedrin (4:2) where an
    important aspect of this theme is expressed in a slightly different
    context.

    15 For an interesting discussion of this basic perspective see
    the article by Rabbi Yechiel Michal Katz, "[VeChayei Olam Nata
    Besoicheinu - Zu TSBP]" Sefer Yevul Ha Yovlot (New York, 1986),
    pp. 346-360 and the sources cited therein.

    16 This view combined with the notion of exclusive human
    responsibility for the halakhic process as reflected by the principle
    of lo bashamayim hi (see Baba Meziah 59b) represents the conceptual
    underpinning for the somewhat radical view of halakhic autonomy that
    is manifest in its independence from even Divine interpretation
    and interference. This doctrine is articulated by Derashot haRan,
    (ed. L. Feldman), and in the famous introduction to the Ketzot
    haHoshen on Hoshen Mishpat in his analysis of the concept of halakhic
    hiddush

Note that while I thought the Ritva was speaking of Chakhmei Luneil,
RMR understands him to be referring to Baalei Tosafos.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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