Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 14

Mon, 30 Jan 2017

< Previous Next >
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 14:49:55 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Copyright Law and Aruch haShulchan


On 27/01/17 14:24, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> So the answer is that of course someone can make an issurim on his
> own item.
>
> VeTalmud Chakham le'olam Torasam shelahem hi, af acharei mosam.
>
> Not like physical property, which you don't own after you die. "Upashut
> hu!"

First of all, since when can one place issurim on an intangible item? 
Can one forbid others from hearing one's voice?

Second, Torah is Morasha Kehilas Yaacov.  So it would seem the only way 
one's chidushim could belong to one is if they are true chidushim, IOW 
not Torah.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all



Go to top.

Message: 2
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 22:06:29 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Tz'nius and Clothing


On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:44 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>
> There are three terms in Tanakh for clothing -- kesus, beged and levush.
> Although levush doesn't appear as a noun until Mordechai wears
> Achashveirosh's clothing.
>

I think you mean it doesn't appear as a noun in *prose* until Mordechai
etc. It's quite common in Tehillim and Iyov, and even once in Humash in
Yehuda's beracha in Bereshit 49:11 "kibbes bayyain levusho"
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170128/1040bae5/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 3
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 19:28:37 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Going to a Hotel for Shabbos/Yomtov


R' Yitzchok Levine posted:

> The following is from http://tinyurl.com/h2fgx5x
>
> ....
> To achieve the correct level of kashrus one must inquire if
> the utensils are toiveled (ritual immersion in a mikve). While
> there are heterim for this ...
> ...
> One must check if the cooking is bishul yisrael or that of
> a non-Jew. If they are lenient regarding ?bishul akum?, ...
> ...
> One must ascertain if the greens are the special ?gush katif?
> [insect free] type or do they make due with using regular
> vegetables that are washed and inspected by a mashgiach. ...
> ...

Upon reading this, my first reaction was to wonder: Why isn't it sufficient
to determine who is responsible for the kashrus, and then ask my trusted
rav whether that hashgacha is reliable for me? The only answer I can think
of for that, is that perhaps my rav is unfamiliar with the hashgacha, so I
need to help him by doing some research into these questions.

But this brings me to another question that I've had for a long time: Why
aren't these answers already public knowledge? Why can't someone ask these
questions to several hashgachos, and then publish the answers? Are there
any libel risks? Are the hashgachos afraid to publicize their policies?
Perhaps this has already been done?

Akiva Miller
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170128/cd10d164/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 20:27:49 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Going to a Hotel for Shabbos/Yomtov


On 28/01/17 19:28, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
>
> Upon reading this, my first reaction was to wonder: Why isn't it
> sufficient to determine who is responsible for the kashrus, and then ask
> my trusted rav whether that hashgacha is reliable for me? The only
> answer I can think of for that, is that perhaps my rav is unfamiliar
> with the hashgacha, so I need to help him by doing some research into
> these questions.

This is in EY where the hotel's hechsher is certain to be rabbanut, and 
you're trying to get an idea of how seriously the hotel takes its 
kashrut, and thus whether they are likely to try to get away with 
something they shouldn't.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all



Go to top.

Message: 5
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 07:08:03 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Going to a Hotel for Shabbos/Yomtov


In which case, you could go to a trusted list of reliable kashrut 
organizations. Or, like many community rabbis, possibly your rav has the 
phone number of a rabbi who specializes in kashrut matters.

But basically I agree - no need to ask all those questions.

Ben

On 1/29/2017 2:28 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Upon reading this, my first reaction was to wonder: Why isn't it 
> sufficient to determine who is responsible for the kashrus, and then 
> ask my trusted rav whether that hashgacha is reliable for me? The only 
> answer I can think of for that, is that perhaps my rav is unfamiliar 
> with the hashgacha, so I need to help him by doing some research into 
> these questions.





Go to top.

Message: 6
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 15:01:47 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Why is the narrative interrupted?


In parashas Shemos after pasuk 6:13


13 And the LORD spoke unto Moses and unto Aaron, and gave them a charge
unto the children of Israel, and unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring the
children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.


The Torah interrupts the narrative of events in Egypt and gives the genealogy of Moshe and Aaron in 6:14_30.  The question is "Why?"


RSRH explains this in his commentary.


6:14?30 Immediately conspicuous is the interruption of the narrative by a genealogical
register interposing in its midst and concluding with the words:

???? ???????, ????????--?????? ????? ??????, ?????, ????????? ???-?????? ?????????? ??????? ?????????, ???-?????????. (v. 26),

 ???, ????????????? ???-???????? ??????-?????????, ????????? ???-??????-??????????

????????????; ???? ??????, ?????????. (v. 27) ? as though
these people were complete strangers to us, with whom we were becoming
acquainted here for the first time. Only in verse 29 does Scripture
return to the beginning of the narrative, repeat it, and continue it!

Let us now consider this genealogical register. It is not limited to
the lineage of Moshe and Aharon; rather, it briefly outlines the two
preceding tribes. So, too, in the tribe of Moshe and Aharon, the register

shows not only their direct lineage, but also the side branches: uncles
and cousins, great uncles and second cousins. Thus, we are shown the
relationship of their tribe with the preceding ones, and the relationship
of their family and house with the families and houses of relatives, in
previous generations and among contemporaries. We are also told the
advanced age reached by their father and their grandfather, which shows
us that not much time separated their demise from the rise of Moshe
and Aharon. Then, pointing to these two in the midst of this wide circle
of family and friends, Scripture repeatedly says: ?these were the same
Moshe and Aharon? ? on the day that God spoke to them! (see vv.
26?28).

If we further consider the point at which we are given this list of
their lineage and family relations, we can perhaps come to understand
the significance and purpose of all this information.

Until now, the efforts of Moshe and Aharon have been completely
frustrated. Were it not for later events, there would be no need for such
an exact list of their lineage and family relations. Now, however, begins
their triumphal mission, the likes of which no mortal had ever accomplished

before them or will ever accomplish after them. Now it is of
critical importance to present an exact list of their lineage and relations,
so as to attest thereby for all time to come that their origin was ordinary
and human, and that the nature of their being was ordinary and human.


Right from the earliest times it has happened that men who were
outstanding benefactors to their people were, after their death, divested
of their human image and, because of their ?godlike? feats, were invested
with a ?Divine? origin. We all know of a certain Jew, in later times,
whose genealogical record was not available, and because it was not
available, and because he brought people a few sparks of light borrowed
from the man Moshe, he came to be considered by the nations as begotten
of God; to doubt his divinity became a capital crime.

Our Moshe was human, remained human, and will never be anything
but human. When his countenance had already become radiant
from what he was allowed to see of God; when he had already brought
down the Torah from Heaven, and had already miraculously led the
people through the wilderness and won for them victories of God, God
here commanded him to present his genealogical record and thereby
affirm the fact that

??????? ??????? ?' ???-??????--???????? ????????? (v. 28), on the day that
God first spoke to Moshe in the land of Egypt, everyone knew his
parents and grandparents, his uncles and aunts and all his cousins. They
knew his whole lineage and all his relatives. For eighty years they had
known him as a man of flesh and blood, subject to all the failings and

weaknesses, worries and needs, of human nature, a man like all the
other men among whom he had been born and raised.

???? ???????, ????????--,

???? ??????, ?????????

 ???, ????????????? ???-????????? they were flesh and blood like all
other men, and God chose them to be His instruments in the performance
of His great work; they were flesh and blood like all other men,
and they carried out His great work.

This ?certificate of origin? is meant to negate in advance and forevermore
any erroneous deification, any illusion of an incarnation of
Deity in human form. It is meant to uphold this truth: Moshe, the
greatest man of all time, was just a man, and the position he attained
before God was not beyond the reach of mortal human beings.
The list of names is also meant to negate a second illusion, the
opposite of the first and no less dangerous. Thus the genealogical register
is not confined to the direct line of descent of Moshe and Aharon ?
viz., Ya?akov, Levi, Kehas, Amram, Moshe ? but lists also the tribes
that preceded Levi, with their descendants, and lists also the other
branches of the tribe of Levi. For although the certificate of origin
establishes as a fact the human nature of Moshe and Aharon, it might
also have fostered the belief that everyone, without exception, is fit to
become a prophet. A person who today is known as a complete idiot

could tomorrow proclaim the Word of God. God?s spirit could suddenly
descend upon an ignorant and uneducated person and teach him to
speak in seventy languages. Indeed, this phenomenon of imagined or
pretended prophecy is not uncommon in other circles. In their view,
the more intellectually limited and empty-minded the prophet of today
was yesterday, the more clearly this sudden transformation attests to a
Divine call.

This dangerous illusion, too, is negated by the family register. True,
Moshe and Aharon were men and nothing but men, but they were
chosen men. Had God wished simply to pick the first comer, there were
other tribes, besides Levi, who stood at His disposal; and within Levi,
there were other branches besides Kehas; and within Kehas, there were
other houses besides that of Amram; and among Amram?s children,
Aharon was the elder son and, like Moshe, was a worthy candidate.
God, however, chooses the worthiest and most exemplary to be His emissaries
who do His bidding. Before he receives his call, the human
being must attain the heights of human virtue. It was not Avraham or
Yitzchak but Ya?akov who became the true founder of the House of
Israel. It was not Reuven or Shimon but Levi who became the chosen
tribe. It was not Aharon or Miryam but Moshe who became God?s
emissary. One is chosen only if he has matured on his own to the point that he has
become worthy of being chosen.

We have already noted (above, 2:11?12) that, according to the Jewish
conception, neither weaklings, nor simpletons, nor those who are dependent

on others are chosen to be the bearers of God?s spirit. On the

contrary, even before he is chosen, God?s emissary must be ? ?healthy? in
body, mind, and social standing. Healthy in body:so that deluded impostors
(whose ill-health affects
their mental outlook) should not disseminate morbid hallucinations which will be
presented and regarded as visions of God. Healthy in mind: because only a mind
that has developed to its full human capacity can grasp and transmit
the Word of God. Healthy in social standing: because only a person
who is independent, who requires nothing for himself and seeks nothing
for himself, can understand people and assess situations objectively, as
befits an emissary of God.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170129/22440fc3/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 7
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 15:46:24 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Can One Point Out Shortcomings of Jewish Public


Is it loshon harah to point out negative things about the public behavior
of Jewish public figures?  For example,  let's suppose that a woman who is
dubbed Orthodox in the media does not adhere to basic tznius standards. 
(For example, there are many pictures of her on the Internet where this is
clearly apparent.)  May one point this out on a blog or in an email that
goes to a number of people?


What exactly are the guidelines for Loshon Harah?  There are some at

http://tinyurl.com/znkgzcc


YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170129/c68dab0c/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 19:19:13 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Copyright Law and Aruch haShulchan


On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 02:49:55PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: First of all, since when can one place issurim on an intangible
: item? Can one forbid others from hearing one's voice?

One can forbid others from getting any hana'ah from you. That's the
textbook case, in fact.

: Second, Torah is Morasha Kehilas Yaacov.  So it would seem the only
: way one's chidushim could belong to one is if they are true
: chidushim, IOW not Torah.

This sevara did come up in previous discussions of halakhah and copyright,
since sefarim are the most common cases to come under discussion.

It could apply to the words, ie the choice of presentation format,
rather than the ideas.

But in any case, to the AhS this line of argument doesn't apply. Perhaps
related is the fact that EY is both a matanah and a morashah -- venasati
osahh lakhem morashah (Shemos 6:8). And about the Torah "ki leqach tov
nasati lakhem".

The real question would be finding an alternative reason why the Rambam,
the Baal haMaor, and the other examples in the AhS thought they can be
mashbia someone else about how to treat their seifer.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507



Go to top.

Message: 9
From: via Avodah
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 01:55:47 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Going to a Hotel for Shabbos/Yomtov




 

From: "Professor L. Levine via Avodah"  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] Going to a Hotel for  Shabbos/Yomtov

The following is  from

http://tinyurl.com/h2fgx5x




>>From Rabbi  Shmuel Eliyahu Shlita:


Being a guest in a hotel on  Shabbos

....Prior to making a reservation in a hotel in Israel or abroad,  one must 
check a number of important things. 

To achieve the correct level of kashrus one must inquire if the  utensils 
are toiveled (ritual immersion in a mikve). ....


One must  check if the cooking is bishul yisrael or that of a non-Jew. If 
they are lenient  regarding bishul akum, then the overall kashrus is in 
doubt.  .....


One must ascertain if the greens are the special "gush katif"  [insect 
free] type or do they make do with using regular vegetables that are  washed and 
inspected by a mashgiach. ......<<




>>>>>
 
 
A guest in a hotel only needs to know one thing:  who gives the  hechsher?  
 If the hechsher is one that cannot be relied on to be  careful about 
tevilas keilim, about bishul akum, or about checking for bugs,  then the hechsher 
cannot be relied on, period.   

I wonder who is R' Shmuel Eliyahu's intended audience.  Is  he addressing 
the guest who relies on Rabbanut kashrus, and  therefore cannot assume any 
given hotel is really kosher? Is he  hinting that the standards of Rabbanut 
kashrus vary so widely from city to city  in Israel, that the guest should 
check it out for himself before relying on the  Rabbanut?   

 
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------
 






-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170130/5a353859/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 06:43:20 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Going to a Hotel for Shabbos/Yomtov


On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 1:55am EST, RnTK wrote:
: From: "Professor L. Levine via Avodah"  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
: The following is  from
: http://tinyurl.com/h2fgx5x

: From Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu Shlita:

:> ....Prior to making a reservation in a hotel in Israel or abroad, one must
:> check a number of important things.

:> To achieve the correct level of kashrus one must inquire if the utensils
:> are toiveled (ritual immersion in a mikve). ....

:> One must check if the cooking is bishul yisrael or that of a non-Jew. If
:> they are lenient regarding bishul akum, then the overall kashrus is in
:> doubt. .....

:> One must ascertain if the greens are the special "gush katif" [insect
:> free] type or do they make do with using regular vegetables that are
:> washed and inspected by a mashgiach. .....

:> I wonder who is R' Shmuel Eliyahu's intended audience. Is he addressing 
:> the guest who relies on Rabbanut kashrus, and therefore cannot assume any 
:> given hotel is really kosher? ...

First, the theory doesn't work because of the "or abroad" in the first
quoted sentence.

I know what you intended, I think, but the truth is that Rabbanut kashrus
really is kosher. It may not enforce many commonplace chumeros, but I
would not besmirch their efforts to maximize the number of Jews keeping
iqar hadin.

Eg I would need it proven that RSE would permit someone to offend their
parents or in-laws rather than eat rabbanut non-mehadrin.

Of course, for those of us who keep more than iqar hadin at home, that's
not very reassuring. And I assume that's his intended audience.

But I must confess I don't get these examples. People who rely on the
Rama and just have a Jew turn on the gas -- "enient regrding bishul akum"
are not violating bishul Yisrael as per the first sentence. At least
not Ashkenazi people.

Or: greens washed and inspected by a mashgiach is a problem? Gush Katif
or Bodek or the like didn't even exist when I got married. (Alei Katif
started in 1990.) Of course one can keep kosher without buying them. When
R Moshe ate at a banquet or another large catered event, it wasn't kosher
because there were no pre-checked options? Nor does it even solve all
problems -- Alei Katif had their alleged thrip problem
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/kashrus-corn
er/161916/star-k-alert-gush-katif-lettuce.html

Side-matter:

Food cooked in a non-toveled keli is still kosher. The problem is using
the plate and silverware. But in any case, even baseline rabbanut requires
tevilah, of course. Implying otherwise is motzi sheim ra.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

PS: When I get a post written at 1:55am I feel guilty, as it is too likely
that approving the post may be enabling someone's addiction.

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507



Go to top.

Message: 11
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 07:46:14 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Going to a Hotel for Shabbos/Yomtov


On 30/01/17 01:55, via Avodah wrote:
> A guest in a hotel only needs to know one thing:  who gives the
> hechsher?   If the hechsher is one that cannot be relied on to be
> careful about tevilas keilim, about bishul akum, or about checking for
> bugs, then the hechsher cannot be relied on, period.

In principle, this is not true.  as he says, in all three cases this is 
not a halachic requirement, but laxity in these three areas speaks to 
the hotel's attitude to kashrus.   No matter how good the hechsher, if 
the hotel wants to evade the mashgiach and get away with stuff, it will. 

  There needs to be a commitment to kashrus from the hotel, a 
willingness to do what's necessary to cater to the kosher consumers' 
expectations, and the mashgiach is there to tell tehm how to do that. 
Precisely because laxity in these three areas doesn't necessarily make 
the food treif, a hotel that cuts corners in these areas will be willing 
to admit it, but he says if it cuts corners here who knows what others 
it cuts that it won't tell you about.

[Email #2. -micha]

On 30/01/17 06:43, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> But I must confess I don't get these examples. People who rely on the
> Rama and just have a Jew turn on the gas -- "enient regrding bishul akum"
> are not violating bishul Yisrael...
> Or: greens washed and inspected by a mashgiach is a problem? Gush Katif
> or Bodek or the like didn't even exist when I got married...
...
> Food cooked in a non-toveled keli is still kosher. The problem is using
> the plate and silverware. But in any case, even baseline rabbanut requires
> tevilah, of course. Implying otherwise is motzi sheim ra.

That's precisely the point of these three tests. a hotel that cares
about catering to its observant clientele will go to the trouble and
slight expense of toveling everything, having everything at
sefardi-level bishul yisrael, and buying the 
slightly-more-expensive-but-far-more-reliable greens.  If they don't, it 
shows that they don't care, and therefore other things will also be wrong.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)


< Previous Next >