Volume 34: Number 109
Thu, 08 Sep 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:12:46 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] aeroponics
vegetables that grow in air
more questions for shemitta and other halachic questions (though this one
is in Newark NJ) , though should eliminate bugs better than hydroponics
see
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/05/world/aerofarms-indoor-farming/in
dex.html
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 2
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 13:42:23 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Rabbi Mazuz bashes 'yichud room' wedding custom
From
http://tinyurl.com/z87vq5c
Rabbi Meir Mazuz, Head of the Kiseh Rachamim Yeshiva, bashed the practice of "yichud room" common at traditional Jewish weddings.
In addition to the problem of imposing Ashkenazi customs on Jews of
Sephardi heritage, Rabbi Mazuz asserted that there as an inherent problem
with the notion of "yichud room," in that it leads to immodesty. "What
happens today is that the couple goes into the room, and their friends
stand by the door. They [taunt them, saying,] 'what's taking you so long?
Have you been in there [long enough]?' What is this madness? Have you gone
crazy? This is a disgrace [...] It's forbidden, and not acceptable."
"[This implies that] the sages of Morocco don't know how to learn, the
sages of Babylonia don't know how to learn, the sages of Tunis don't know
how to learn, only the Ashkenazim know how to learn? On the contrary: We
know no less; we need to not have "yichud room." Furthermore: We need to
write on the wedding invitations, 'there will be no "yichud room.' Whoever
is not comfortable with that doesn't have to come."
Therefore, Rabbi Mazuz concluded: "It is a divine command to cancel this custom. May it not be remembered or invoked ever. Even among Ashkenazim."
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Message: 3
From: MDeutsch
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 09:47:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rabbi Mazuz bashes 'yichud room' wedding custom
From: Professor L. Levine [mailto:llev...@stevens.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 9:42 AM
> From http://tinyurl.com/z87vq5c
>> Rabbi Meir Mazuz, Head of the Kiseh Rachamim Yeshiva...
>> In addition to the problem of imposing Ashkenazi customs on Jews of Sephardi
>> heritage, Rabbi Mazuz asserted that there as an inherent problem with the
>> notion of "yichud room," in that it leads to immodesty...
>> Therefore, Rabbi Mazuz concluded: "It is a divine command to cancel this
>> custom. May it not be remembered or invoked ever. Even among Ashkenazim."
Only problem is that one of the shitos in the gemara in kesubos is that
chupah = yichud
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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:59:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rabbi Mazuz bashes 'yichud room' wedding custom
On 06/09/16 09:47, MDeutsch via Avodah wrote:
>> From http://tinyurl.com/z87vq5c
>>> Rabbi Meir Mazuz, Head of the Kiseh Rachamim Yeshiva...
>>> In addition to the problem of imposing Ashkenazi customs on Jews of Sephardi
>>> heritage, Rabbi Mazuz asserted that there as an inherent problem with the
>>> notion of "yichud room," in that it leads to immodesty...
>>> Therefore, Rabbi Mazuz concluded: "It is a divine command to cancel this
>>> custom. May it not be remembered or invoked ever. Even among Ashkenazim."
> Only problem is that one of the shitos in the gemara in kesubos is that
> chupah = yichud
And AFAIK Sefardim do this *after* the wedding, when the couple go to their
actual home. At the wedding the bride is still an arusah, not a nesuah,
whereas Ashkenazi brides are nesuos (which leads to a machlokes whether they
must cover their hair at the wedding, or only the next morning).
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 21:47:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] laws of nature
On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 09:39:47PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: He stresses in the book that the purpose of physics is to determine the
: results in the real world, i.e. the how and not the why. Thus, while
: quantum theory is weird and not understood by anyone QED is much more
: strange..... He stresses
: that we don't know iof all this really happens but the theory matched many
: experimenst to multiple digits of accuracy and so it is "correct".
This is only since QM. Before that, scientists expected to have a "why"
to justify their equations. (String theorists often find that two theproes
about the geometry of space and of the M-brance that occupy it produce
the same math. And they are now considered identcial theories, even when
they disagree on minor things like how many dimaensions space has.)
BTW, this move keeps religion and science even further apart as
seperate magesteria, dealing with very different topics.
: 1) It is impossible to even theoretically create an experiment that would
: prove or disprove the assertion
: 2) It does nothing to help determine the outcome of any experiment and so
: is irrelevant for physics.
: One can argue for G-d and one can argue for an alien race that determines
: everything in the world using their super-super computer.
But...
1- There could well be other ways to justify the conclusion [that ev
"there is nothing as a law of nature but rather G-d continually guides
every single incident to the identical result."
2- Being irrelevant for physics doesn't mean it's irrelevant for
physicists -- or the rest of us.
And if all science does is give the math by which we describe predictable
patterns of events, then "G-d did it" is on the same level playing ground
as any other explanation. (See my comment above about non-overlapping
magesteria.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do.
mi...@aishdas.org Thus excellence is not an event,
http://www.aishdas.org but a habit.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Aristotle
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 21:55:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mourning an Abusive Parent
On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 10:36:39PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: Mourning an abusive parent ought to be prohibited since it violates the
: Issur of Chanufa...
An abusive person, definitely. An abusive parent? Not so sure.
As I see it from the discussion so far:
1- To what extent is kibud av va'eim a mitzvah bein adam laMaqom, and
thus not only about the parent. The parent as a symbol of the Third
Parner in the person's creation and how He would be treated.
As in R' Aryeh Frimer's book review -- it's not clear a rasha serves
in that role. But I am also not sure we hold he doesn't.
2- What can we demand out of the victim? It's not like kibud av is
yeihareig ve'al ya'avor. Mental health matters.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org to be as human as possible while we are here.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Anonymous MD, while a Nazi prisoner
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Message: 7
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 13:29:31 +1000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mourning an Abusive Parent
I suggested that Mourning an abusive parent ought to be prohibited since
it violates the Issur of Chanufa...
R Micha responded - An abusive person, definitely. An abusive parent? Not
so sure.
Reb Micha please explain why there might not be an Issur Chanufa when
honouring an abusive parent?
[Email #2.]
Subject: Chanufa re Abusive Parents, R Yona
ShTeShuvah 187
9 categories of Chonef
Someone who recognises [Hikir - though his own observations] or has seen or
knows [through the observations of others]
that a certain person has done bad [Oval BeYad ChaVeiro]
or has supported crooked behaviour [HachZik BeTarmis]
or he has sinned by speaking badly about another Yid
or hurt other peoples feelings [ONoAs Devarim]
and smooths things over by telling him, You have done nothing wrong .....
188
One is obligated to expose oneself to risk [LeSakana] rather than
transgressing such a sin ....
189
category 2 - the Chonef who praises the Rasha be it in the presence of the
Rasha or not,
even though he does not defend the evil ..
but simply says he's a good guy
for if this Chonef would not have abandoned Torah
he would not be able to praise one who transgresses it ...
and even though the praise is all utterly true ....
I suppose we must say that those things that we may assume a normal person
would regret - even if they lack the fortitude to do the right thing and
make restitution or apologise to the victim
So why would it not be Chanufa to honour a parent, which is essentially
making a declaration that the parent is a good person, even though the
honouring does not reflect directly upon the abusive nature of that parent?
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 06:51:55 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mourning an Abusive Parent
On Wed, Sep 07, 2016 at 01:29:31PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
: R Micha responded - An abusive person, definitely. An abusive parent? Not
: so sure.
...
: So why would it not be Chanufa to honour a parent, which is essentially
: making a declaration that the parent is a good person, even though the
: honouring does not reflect directly upon the abusive nature of that parent?
I argued that while it could well be chanifah, that might not matter.
Kibud av va'eim is only partly about the parent. To a large extent the
parent is a "cheftza shel mitzvah", representing how we would treat G-d if
He visibly walked among us. After all, there are 3 shutfim in a person's
birth, and that's why kibud av is among the first 5 diberos, etc... (I
am sure you have heard this before; it is common derashah fodder.)
And thus the first question I posed is whether a parent who is a rasha
still serves as that symbol, or whether kibud av is not obligatory.
One can't really talk about chanifah if the point is that one's treatment
of the parent is mandated as symbolic or training for how one would
treat one's Parent in heaven.
And so to my mind, the question is more about can a rasha serve in that
role of symbol, and thus beyond the topic of chanifah. (In addition to
the question of whether mental health should trump the chiyuv anyway.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 9
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 21:53:29 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] laws of nature
<<And if all science does is give the math by which we describe predictable
patterns of events, then "G-d did it" is on the same level playing ground
as any other explanation. (See my comment above about non-overlapping
magesteria.
>>
Most definitely!!
Several books on physics offer that as an alternative bur prefer multiple
universes etc.
I would imagine that people on this list would think that the existence of
G-d is more logical than the existence of infinite universes or
13-dimensional universes none of which can be proved either.
<<2- Being irrelevant for physics doesn't mean it's irrelevant for physicists
-- or the rest of us.>>
As I pointed out Feynman had severe moral failings that disturbed his
biographer. So being a great physicist doesn't solve everything of value
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 10
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 07:33:09 +1000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mourning an Abusive Parent
On 7 Sep 2016 8:51 PM, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I argued that while it could well be chanifah, that might not matter.
>
> Kibud av va'eim is only partly about the parent. To a large extent the
> parent is a "cheftza shel mitzvah", representing how we would treat G-d if
> He visibly walked among us...
Is there any Halacha founded upon the Derasha - HKBH is a parent, 3 Shutfim
in a person?
I'm pretty suspicious of employing a Derasha (HKBH is a parent, 3 Shutfim
in a person) LeTaAma Dekra, to modify the application of the Issur of
Chanufa.
AFAIK it's a Derasha not brought in Midrash, nor mentioned by the Rishonim.
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Message: 11
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 18:19:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mourning an Abusive Parent
On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 07:33:09AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
: I'm pretty suspicious of employing a Derasha (HKBH is a parent, 3 Shutfim
: in a person) LeTaAma Dekra, to modify the application of the Issur of
: Chanufa.
: AFAIK it's a Derasha not brought in Midrash, nor mentioned by the Rishonim.
See the Birkhas Shemu'el (Yevamos 3:3) explaining Tosafos on Kesuvos
40a. Tosafos applies asei dokheh lo sa'asei to kibud av va'eim (KAvE).
Birkhas Shemu'el notes that we don't hold asei bein adam lachaveiro (BALC)
dokheh lo sa'asei BALM, and concludes that it must be that Tosafos hold
that KAvE is BALM.
See also the Minchas Chinukh (#33), who concludes Yom Kippur is mechaper
KAvE without asking their mechilah because KAvE is BALM.
On the other hand, the Rambam on Peiah 1:1 clearly labels KAvE as BALC.
As I said, it's an open question. Even lehalahakhah.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch
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Message: 12
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 10:56:58 +1000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] [Chanufa] Mourning an Abusive Parent
On 8 Sep 2016 8:19 AM, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 07:33:09AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
> : I'm pretty suspicious of employing a Derasha (HKBH is a parent, 3 Shutfim
> : in a person) LeTaAma Dekra, to modify the application of the Issur of
> : Chanufa.
...
> See the Birkhas Shemu'el (Yevamos 3:3) explaining Tosafos on Kesuvos...
> See also the Minchas Chinukh (#33), who concludes Yom Kippur is mechaper
> KAvE without asking their mechilah because KAvE is BALM.
> On the other hand, the Rambam on Peiah 1:1 clearly labels KAvE as BALC.
It would seem that notwithstanding the BALM aspect within the Mitzvah of
KAVeEim, it is not greater than the Mitzvah of honouring and respecting
BD.
Yet the Issur of Chanufa applies specifically to not bowing to accept a
Pesak of a preceding BD just because they preceded the present BD that
deems their ruling to be incorrect.
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Message: 13
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:04:57 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Artscroll Question
Anyone know why in the standard daily Artscroll siddur they moved the
"chazan's stop" right after kriat shma from before l'dor v?dor to after it
by al avoteinu, while leaving it there in the all Hebrew version (Tifferet
Yaakov)?
KT
Joel Rich
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