Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 83

Mon, 25 Jul 2016

• 1. Re: incorrect learning of Torah (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: incorrect learning of Torah (Zev Sero)
• 3. consent to be included in an eruv (Zev Sero)

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> Instead Tosafot seems to be saying that at least
> for children the important thing is information.

Perhaps the key words here are "for children".

Not being Bnei Mitzvah, perhaps they indeed get no s'char for their
learning, and their learning is purely a practical means of acquiring
knowledge and skills that they'll need later. "Learning to learn" is no
diferent than learning to daven, learning to do chesed, etc etc. This seems
to fit very well with what I remember about the mitzvah of chinuch in
general.

If the teacher is not a good one, then it is indeed a very big waste of
time. This also answers my question about "anu m'kablim s'char" at a siyum.

Thank you

Akiva Miller
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On 07/21/2016 07:18 PM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Not being Bnei Mitzvah, perhaps they indeed get no s'char for their
> learning, and their learning is purely a practical means of acquiring
> knowledge and skills that they'll need later.

This is also a good point, but I think the central point, which RET is
completely not taking into account, is that this is not a teacher of
mishna, or of thinking, but simply of the text of Tanach. Either he is
teaching the pesukim correctly or incorrectly, and really what is the
point of learning to read a pasuk incorrectly?

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

This was rejected from Areivim, but gmail decided the rejection was spam
so I only just now saw it.

On Areivim, Torahmike wrote:
> An Eruv requires consensual participation of all Jews within its
> boundaries. Not only can every Rabbi object, every Jew can.
> Ironically Eruv vandals who live within a given eruv don't have to do
> anything to an eruv to physically take it down, they just have to
> declare they don't consent to have a zchus in it, and it's
> automatically pasul.

And I replied:
> This is not true.   Nobody's consent is needed, and nobody's protest
> can passel it.  The person who makes the eruv gives a share in the box
> of matzah to every Jew who has property within the boundaries, and they
> have no power to refuse it.   Zachin le'adam shelo befanav, even if he
> explicitly objects, unless there's some way in which it is really a chovah
> for him and not a zechus, giving him grounds for his objection.

He replied:
> Not true. See tosefes shabbos in the name of the atzai elmogim.

My first response, which was bounced from Areivim:
Reference, please.  If this were so there would be no eruv anywhere.

To which he replied privately:
> C. The Tosefes Shabbos is found in siman 367 I believe.

My reply, which was bounced form Areivim:
I just went through the Tosefes Shabbos on the whole chapter 367 and there
is no reference to Atzei Almogim, or any hint that a person can object to
someone else sponsoring his share of an eruv -- which makes sense, since
this siman is entirely about who can contribute bread on the owner's behalf,
not about someone sponsoring it, which is in the previous chapter, graf 9.
So I looked at Tosefes Shabbos on that paragraph, and once again there is
nothing about a right to object, and no reference to Atzei Almogim.


Torahmike also wrote:
> It's actually explicitly clear from the Shulchan Aruch itself that
> Zachin baal kaarcho wouldn't help, since his only solutions are for
> his wife to contribute on his behalf or for bais din to force him to
> participate.

My reply:
That's where they're actually going door to door collecting bread, and
there's nobody willing to sponsor his share.   If someone is willing to
be mezakeh him al yedei acher there's no problem.

To which I add now:
In a city the whole issue discussed in ch 367 doesn't apply, since
there isn't extra bread for each person, so there's no question of who
should contribute the objector's share.  The same box of matzah suffices
for the whole city, and the sponsor is mezakeh it to everyone al yedei
acher.  There is no piece of matzah that can be said, even in principle,
to be any one person's individual contribution.  So not only is nothing
being asked from an objector, but he's not even receiving a gift, to
which he could object because he's a sonei matanos.  So what tzad chovah
can there be, that would entitle him to object?


Torahmike then wrote:
> Tosfos bottom of Eruvin 81A says you can't include a person in an
> eruv by force even for free. The Bach brings it in Siman 369.

My reply, which once again bounced:
I haven't got time to go through the Bach right now, including going back
to ch 366, but I want to point out right away that the Bach you cite
agrees with the rule I cited, that omed vetzaveach works only if there is
a way in which it's a liability.   See the end of the first piece
of Bach on this siman, about four lines before the end, "that even though
it's a benefit for him, we count it as a bit of a liability because maybe he
has some reason why he doesn't want to join the eruv, so here also we can
say that even though he wants to join the eruv maybe he has a reason why he
doesn't want to do it by a free gift".    Thus in order to prevent zachin
le'adam there needs to be a down side for him.  If there isn't then we don't
care whether he likes it or not.


I still haven't had a chance to go carefully through this Bach.  It's
long and rather confusing.  But even if he does hold that one can't
include a person in an eruv b'al korcho (though one *can* go to beis
din and take his share by force?!), Rashi and the Rosh disagree, and
the Shulchan Aruch and pretty much everyone else I've seen pasken like
them.



-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                          words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                          when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis


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