Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 148

Wed, 25 Nov 2015

• 1. Re: conversion monitoring (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: changing nusach hatefile (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: truth ()
• 4. maaseh avot siman lebanim (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (Zev Sero)
• 6. yaakov comes home (saul newman)
• 7. Re: yaakov comes home (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: yaakov comes home (saul newman)
• 9. Re: yaakov comes home (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: yaakov comes home (saul newman)
• 11. Re: yaakov comes home (Micha Berger)
• 12. Ahab (Eli Turkel)
• 13. chumrah leading to a kulah (Eli Turkel)
• 14. Re: Ahab (Lisa Liel)

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 03:10:57PM -0800, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: question---in standard charedi conversions , are there periodic recalls of
: the convert to the beis din  in order to decide if their current level of
: practice  is insufficient, warranting bitul lemafrea?

There is no bitul lemfreia. Yisrael, af al pi shechatah, Yisrael hu. The
only way you can invalidate a conversion is if you could show that it
(1) pro forma was not done al pi halakhah or more relevantly, (2) that
the geir never was meqabel/es ol mitzvos. (However you might define that.)

The story doesn't say, but I bet something came out during the discussion
not about the mother's shemiras Shabbos today, but her shemiras Shabbos the
weeks after the conversion. That she never accepted to join the people
who follow halakhah.

("To join the people who follow halakhah" is my latest attempt to
include even the loosest definitions of qabbalas ol mitzvos.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Cc: RnCL to leverage the research she put into QOM for prior discussions.

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 11/23/2015 02:57 AM, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:

> This interpretation seems to be begging the question. You're assuming
> that RMF held that changing nusah is "wrong", but he doesn't say that.

Actually he does.   He says that he doesn't understand what heter the
chassidim had to change their nusach, and he cites and dismisses two
such alleged heterim.  However, you are correct that despite this

> but in the penultimate sentence of that paragraph he says explicitly
> "We don't object to those who made changes, for they surely had a
> reason that justified the change".

In other words although he can't think of a heter he assumes they must
have had one, and also a good reason, and therefore he won't second-guess
them.



-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

 
From: Zev Sero via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

>>he doesn't know that Esav is  really evil [...] Rivka had always
>> warned him about Esav "ki tzayid  befiv" but he never believed her.[--TK]

He did believe her, and he knew  what Esav was really like.  He warned
Esav not to bring him stolen meat  or neveilah, and when Yaacov addressed
him politely he grew suspicious.   So he knew exactly what sort of son
he was dealing with, but he thought the  power of the brachos would bring
Esav back.  Rivka knew  otherwise.

-- 
Zev  Sero                
z...@sero.name          





>>>>>
 
He knew that his sons were different but he did not know that Esav was a  
rasha and he certainly did not know that Esav had sold the bechora -- in 
fact,  despised the bechora.  When  you see the brachos he gave Yakov (what  he 
had originally intended to give Esav) you see that they are all blessings 
for  material wealth.  He knew that Esav was not the scholarly type but he  
thought his two sons would have a Yisachar-Zevulun relationship, that Esav 
would  be wealthy and would support his brother, the scholar, who would spend 
his whole  life learning.  Rivka knew that Yakov needed material wealth as 
well as  intellectual and spiritual blessings, because she knew that Esav 
would not  support Yakov and Yakov would be destitute if he had to depend on 
Esav.   She knew that Esav was systematically deceiving his father as to his 
true  character.  She tried to tell Yitzchak but he didn't believe her.   Yes, 
Yitzchak knew his sons had different personalities but Rivka understood her 
 sons far more deeply than Yitzchak did. 
 
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------   





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We are supposed to learn how to act from the avot.

The problem is that we frequently have our preconceived notions and then

put them into the avot rather than the reverse.



Below is an example I recently saw (from the har etzion site)



We all know the aggadah of the burial of Yaakov, the fight with Esav and

finally the deaf Chushin the son of Dan kills Esav



explanation #1 - The sons of Jacob didn't know how to handle the challenge

of Esav and argues with him but Esav was more clever. Chushin who was deaf

understood the "real" Esav and understood the resultant Chilul Hashem. So

he acts without considering the reactions to his act to claim the rights of

the descendants of Yaakov



explanation #2 - There was no need for the disagreement between Esav and

the sons of Jacob to involve murder. It could have been solved by friendly

negotiations by showing Jacob's legal right to Maarat HaMachpela. Instead

there are "deaf" people who rush to action before all peaceful ways are

followed. Rikvah who fought to prevent the fight between Yaakov and Esav

now loses both of them the same day.



There is no way to decide between these alternatives sometimes the

questions are stronger than the answers

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 11/24/2015 10:52 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
  
> explanation #2 - There was no need for the disagreement between Esav and
> the sons of Jacob to involve murder.

What murder?  Esav was holding up Yaacov's funeral.  He had no right
to do that, and Yaacov's family had no need to put up with it.  Esav
of course knew very well that he'd sold the plot, and was therefore
in the wrong.  He just supposed, correctly, that they would not have
thought to bring the contract with them.


> It could have been solved by friendly negotiations by showing Jacob's
> legal right to Maarat HaMachpela.

And in the meantime Yaacov is just lying there waiting, which is a
bizayon.  To Chushim that was not acceptable, so he took direct action
and the funeral was able to proceed.


> There is no way to decide between these alternatives

There certainly is.  The conclusion of the episode is that Yaacov saw
Esav's blood on his feet, and laughed.   What more is needed to show
that Chushim was right?

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

if yaakov  spent 2 yr  in canaan  before  seeing his father ,  what's the
logic of that?  i think ones natural inclination would be to visit
relatives the day one arrives to the airport. i understand getting eisav
out of the way,  but 2 years?
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On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 02:35:41PM -0800, saul newman wrote:
: if yaakov  spent 2 yr  in canaan  before  seeing his father ,  what's the
: logic of that?  i think ones natural inclination would be to visit
: relatives the day one arrives to the airport. i understand getting eisav
: out of the way,  but 2 years?

According to the Mahrasha (Megillah 16b) and Sifsei Chakhamim, he
was punished for it. So, it was in error. Yoseif was missing and
presumed dead for 22 years as punishment for the amount of those 22 years
Yaaqov was wrongly away from Yitzchaq and Rivqa. 2 of them are these.

So its a matter of explaining why it was a small error rather than a big
blatant one.

BTW, Sukkos and Beis-El are nowhere near Be'er Sheva. Not sure if they're
far enogh to serve as an excuse, but...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> According to the Mahrasha (Megillah 16b) and Sifsei Chakhamim, he
> was punished for it. So, it was in error. Yoseif was missing and
> presumed dead for 22 years as punishment for the amount of those 22 years
> Yaaqov was wrongly away from Yitzchaq and Rivqa. 2 of them are these.

> So its a matter of explaining why it was a small error rather than a big
> blatant one.

i understand punishment hepresumably shuld have wanted to show off his
family to his mom....

and any ways, i  have less problem with the punishment for the last 8
than the 1st 14, wherein he was following the command of his father....

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 02:52:53PM -0800, saul newman wrote:
: and any ways, i  have less problem with the punishment for the last 8
: than the 1st 14, wherein he was following the command of his father....

The Sefas Emes asks that question. He compares Yaaqov's exile to an
ir miqlat -- the sin was criminal negligence, not willfull sinning. He
should have treated Eisav differently, and he wouldn't have ended up in
a situation where he couldn't honor his parents.


To start a different train of thought:

Rivqa said "veyashavta imo yamim achadim" (27:44)

The time he speant working for Lavan for Rachel were "vayihyu be'einav
keyamim achadim" (29:20)

But he mourned for Yoseif "yamim rabbim" (37:34)

Something there about the point of the punishment. The days of labor
only fit his mother's description in his own perception, not his mother's.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 02:52:53PM -0800, saul newman wrote:
>: and any ways, i  have less problem with the punishment for the last 8
>: than the 1st 14, wherein he was following the command of his father....

> The Sefas Emes asks that question. He compares Yaaqov's exile to an
> ir miqlat -- the sin was criminal negligence, not willfull sinning. He
> should have treated Eisav differently, and he wouldn't have ended up in
> a situation where he couldn't honor his parents.

meaning, he should have refused to his mom's ruse to steal the bracha,
or should have answered 'hakol kol' by saying 'it's me, yaakov' ?

or meaning  he should have given the soup with no strings attatched?

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 07:28:41PM -0800, saul newman wrote:
: meaning, he should have refused to his mom's ruse to steal the bracha,
: or should have answered 'hakol kol' by saying 'it's me, yaakov' ?
: 
: or meaning  he should have given the soup with no strings attatched?

I took the Sefas Emes as talkig more like we do about Dinah avoiding
Esav... About things he could have done other than those two to bring
him back. Take a look inside.

I also found h
ttp://heichalhanegina.blogspot.com/2006/12/kibud-av-part-two.html

The Modzitzer Rebbe points to the last 2 years. His ability not to rush
home immediately shows that Yaaqov motive even during the 20 years was
not just to do what his father said and come right back.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Ahab's children were not Jewish since their mother Jezebel was not Jewish
and hence certainly not fit to be kings    Nevertheless Tanach indicates
they were wicked but not that they were illegitimate kings

In a recent tradition article article there is an example how a chumrah
especially made as a reaction leads to a kulah

In the prohibition R Louis Ginzberg issued a psak that one could use
grape juice for kiddush. In reaction to this Conservative psak some O
rabbi attacked R Ginzburg and paskened that grape juice was no different
than orange juice and certainly not to be used for kiddush. As a result O
Jews used wine for kiddush during the prohibition but drank grape juice
without any hechsher.

Today (beginning with R Pesach Tzvi Frank) most poskim say that one can
use grape juice for kiddush (some even say its preferable). Most important
they all hold that grape juice is wine for the prohibition of stam yeinam

Hence, the attempt to attack R Ginzburg and be machmir led many Jews
for over 30 years to transgress the issur of stam yeinam.

-- 
Eli Turkel

On 11/25/2015 6:35 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> Ahab's children were not Jewish since their mother Jezebel was not Jewish
> and hence certainly not fit to be kings    Nevertheless Tanach indicates
> they were wicked but not that they were illegitimate kings

Just because she was a wicked idolater doesn't mean she didn't convert 
before marrying Ahav.  In point of fact, we don't have any indication 
that Ahav was a bad guy before Izevel married him and influenced him.

I'd actually turn the argument around, and say that from the fact that 
neither Tanach nor Chazal suggest that Ahav's children weren't Jewish, 
it's clear that Izevel *did* convert.

Lisa


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