Volume 33: Number 109
Thu, 30 Jul 2015
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 02:45:03 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Molad
On 07/28/2015 11:51 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Y-m time to EST is 7h 21m, not 20.
True. I was approximating, much as the Rambam did with Y'm latitude.
> But I am not sure the molad is announced for Y-m time, despite what we
> call it.
http://mechon-mamre.org/i/3811.htm#17
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 11:33:13 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Molad
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 02:45:03AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:> But I am not sure the molad is announced for Y-m time, despite what we
:> call it.
: http://mechon-mamre.org/i/3811.htm#17
The Rambam there (Qiddush haChodesh 11:17) discusses the calculation of
the calendar. The rules are set up based on RC in Y-m.
Announcing the molad doesn't reflect the calculated calendar, but the
whole Qiddush haChodesh is set up to invoke Sanhedrin being meqadesh
al pi re'iyah. So perhaps they chose a clock for announcing the molad
that wasn't the one they used to translate to the meridian used for
translating mollad into rosh chodesh.
Why would we do so? Isn't the meridian of Y-m the obvious time to use
even if it weren't the one used to compute the calendar?
As I quickly mentioned (I gave more details more than once in the past),
I am suggesting a different meridian because if Hillel Nesi'ah ubeis dino
had assumed a molad that was 23 min earlier than the one we announce,
the molad would be more accurate.
23 min later than Yerushalayim does correspond to a meaningful place
at the time, a point exactly midway between the Jews of EY and those
of Bavel. Aside from including Ur Kasdim. Not the most obvious choice
(Yerushalayim) but still not a random meridian either. So why not assume
they picked the meridian for announcing the molad on that basis, and
credit the Sanhedrin with knowing the molad to greater accuracy?
The question is what that does to molad zaqein, and how we would explain
the clean result of before noon vs posponing RH if the molad is after
noon.
The idea behind molad zaqein is that the furthest east Jewish community
would still be able to see (weather permitting) the new moon before the
end of RC. This is obviously only a loose idea, since we're talking about
timing based on the molad, an approximate average. (So that on average
Jews in the east would see the new moon...?)
RYGB and/or RAZZ theorize
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol05/v05n038.shtml#08
that the Calendar Controversy was over the issue of how far east do we
worry about.
R' Aharon ben Meir wanted to move the cutoff for molad zaqein by 64
chalaqim. (More than 23 min, ie 414 chalaqim.) He doesn't say why.
Their article suggests that RABM was setting the rule for molad zaqein
based on the furthest known Jewish settlement at that time. Which would
be Kaifun, and the numbers work. Whereas RSG objected saying that the
location is theoretical, not experimental.
The Kuzari (following RSG -- since it's his version of the calendar
that we all use) uses this to argue that the international date line
is 90 deg east of Y-m ih"q. And thus any Jewish settlement that would
be further east would be on the other side of the date line WRT Rosh
Chodesh, and there is no problem of the molad being on their day 2.
If so, changing the molad by 23 min would change the calendar, halakhah
would prove my claim wrong.
But few if any of us hold that the date line is 90 deg east of Y-m,
east down 125.2 deg E, down Dongeng St in Changchun, China. To quote
R Dovid Heber at <http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline.htm>:
Families on the eastern strip of Dongfeng Street would recite
kiddush while families a block to the west would recite havdala.
It may be possible for those who want two days of Shabbos to walk
one block eastbound, down Dongfeng Street, after Seuda Shlishis and
start Shabbos again. Those who want to skip almost all of Shabbos
could take a short stroll westbound, and go from sunset Friday to
sunset Saturday.
(This post needed something light to leaven it.)
From where I sit, between those who say 180deg and the CI's adjudgment
of including the entire land mass if part of it is west of 90deg,
the dominant shitah is inconsistent with the Kuzari's explanation.
If the date line is not involved, it would mean the machloqes would be
about what we mean by the far enough end of Jewish settlement who would
still experience the molad before the end of RC. RSG is saying that 90
deg is the Sanhderin mandated estimate, and RABM holds it's the actual
furthest settlement.
And that stands whether or not RYGB and RAZZ are correct about RAML's
sevara, as we're only looking at RSG lehalakhah. I just took the Kuzari's
lomdus and asked what it would mean to those who don't agree with his
date line.
If that line of reasoning is correct, then saying the approximate
eastmost community is to be measured from the center of the core
Jewish settlement -- between Bavel and EY -- ends up more intuitive
than saying it's measured from Y-m.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger If you're going through hell
mi...@aishdas.org keep going.
http://www.aishdas.org - Winston Churchill
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 12:11:28 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] De-Chokifying Arayos
Ooops! Yesterday I accidentally pressed "send" when I meant to "save
draft". The result was a post that was far from finished. Here is what I
had intended to publish:
R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> It seems to me we are using the words "psak" and "poskim" too
> loosely. If it's psak you want, I think all sources, rishonim
> and acharonim, agree that marital intercourse is always mutar
> (assuming the usual, the wife is not a nidah, it's not forced,
> it's not Yom Kippur, etc). What we are really talking about
> here is hashkafa, not psak -- even if it is in the Shulchan
> Aruch. What frequency is optimum? ... ...
Maybe, and maybe not. Let's look at the words.
I'm focusing on Orach Chaim 240. The word "asur" appears a fair amount of
the time, but there are other categorizations used as well, such as "lo
y'hay" (don't be that sort of person), or "lo [insert verb here]" (don't do
that). I was once told that the word "asur" is to be taken literally, but
the other terms are not as strong, and simply means that these actions are
ideally to be avoided, actually mutar (which might also be RTK's point).
But IF that is how we are to understand the vocabulary, then we have a
whole new way of reading the Shulchan Aruch. Here are some examples of this
new way of understanding: It's not assur to shmooze between Geulah and
Tefillah of Maariv (236:2) or to say Shehecheyanu on the Lulav on the
second day (662:2) or to say Hallel on RH and YK (584:1) or to get a
haircut before Mincha (232:2). It's not assur to daven only in your heart,
but it's better if you pronounce the words with your lips. (101:2)
I will concede that these examples are indeed less severe than cases where
the Shulchan Aruch DOES use the word "assur". But nevertheless, we do not
take these halachos as mere suggestions. Despite the lack of the word
"asur", we DO accept it as normative psak halacha, and not as "hashkafa",
to use RTK's word.
So why should Siman 240 be different? Why would we suddenly take the words
of Siman 240 to be hashkafa, and wave off the Shulchan Aruch, saying that
his derech is different than our derech? Shouldn't we accept it as
normative halacha? Even if I feel these halachos to be strange or
difficult, shouldn't I at least accept them as a goal to strive for? And if
I *don't* strive for them, doesn't that require teshuva?
> Surely that is at least partly subjective, and any of the
> various sources that apparently disagree with each other can
> be drawn upon when you're looking for something to back up
> what your gut tells you is right.
Maybe, but one had better be VERY sure that those sources actually exist,
and that they have ample support in the poskim. Otherwise - as I asked a
couple of posts ago - how is this any different than what the conservative
and reform do?
"It's a big machlokes - there's gotta be someone who paskens the way I
want, so that's what I'm gonna do." I shudder when I hear
otherwise-observant people saying such things. There are indeed some cases
where there is such a *lack* of consensus among the poskim that one can do
as he wants (one of my teachers paskened this way and for this reason
regarding brachos on dessert), but I do not see Siman 240 in this category.
We seem to be abandoning the consensus of the Shulchan Aruch and Nosei
Keilim, and running to minority rishonim.
> Also it seems to me that with all the talk about minimizing
> this-worldly pleasure -- which in general is a Torah-dik thing
> to do -- we are also losing sight of the husband's obligation
> of onah. For a wife, physical closeness is tied to emotional
> closeness and it is often not, strictly speaking, a this-worldly
> pleasure but a real emotional need, which a husband has at least
> some obligation to fulfill.
Are we really sure that (for the wife) physical closeness is tied to
emotional closeness from the Torah's perspective? Or perhaps that is only
an invention of minds which have been clouded by the outside culture? Could
it be that Onah requires physical closeness, but not emotional closeness?
I get mixed messages on this. On the one hand, an awful lot of Siman 240 is
devoted to husband and wife both being of the proper frame of mind, and
this is extremely strong evidence to the real importance of emotional
closeness. But when I see halachos about keeping conversation to a minimum,
and keeping the time involved to a minimum, then I wonder how much
closeness can be achieved.
I had posted:
: Zeh haklal: Eating is proper as long as you don't overdo it.
: Sex is proper as long as you minimize it.
R' Micha Berger responded:
> ... because of the biological differences. Sex differs in two ways:
> ... 2- You can survive without it. A few days without food though...
Really? Can we really survive without it? You and me, I suppose, but that's because we are male.
RTK referenced mitzvas onah. In the Torah's view, sex is as essential as food and shelter are. But only for women.
Regardless of whether we're talking about physical closeness or emotional
closeness, it seems that the Torah is concerned about closeness only for
the woman, and not for the man. For women, closeness is a need which must
be met; for men, closeness is a taavah which must be controlled.
Let's not allow ourselves to get confused between needs and taavos. A
person may desire something so much that he thinks it to be a need, but he
is deluding himself. Nowhere do I see any responsibilities of the wife
which are comparable to Mitzvas Onah. Yes, she'll be a "moredet" if she
refuses, but (as I understand it) that is due to the social contract
implicit in the concept of marriage, which is a very cry from a Chiyuv
D'Oraisa.
____________________________________________________________
Old School Yearbook Pics
View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Search by School & Year. Look Now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/55b8c3465e5f543465c9est02vuc
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 18:01:07 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] yehoshua ben gamla
according to the Hebrew wikipedia Matyha bat Baytus bought the high
priesthood for her husband Yehoshua ben Gamla towards the end of the second
Temple. As we discussed it couldn't be from Alexander Jannai and they guess
that it was from Agripas II.
Furthermore Yehoshua Ben Gamla was killed during the revolt against Rome.
(Where the high priest Yishmael ben Elisha fits in we have discussed in the
past)
--
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150729/d5110773/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 12:07:59 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] yehoshua ben gamla
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 06:01:07PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> according to the Hebrew wikipedia Matyha bat Baytus bought the high
:> priesthood for her husband Yehoshua ben Gamla towards the end of the second
:> Temple. As we discussed it couldn't be from Alexander Jannai and they guess
:> that it was from Agripas II.
: Furthermore Yehoshua Ben Gamla was killed during the revolt against Rome.
: (Where the high priest Yishmael ben Elisha fits in we have discussed in the
: past)
The gemara is Yuma 18a and Yevamos 61a. The mishnah in Yevemos says
that Yehoshua ben Gamla married Marta bas Baisus, an almana, but before
consummating the marriage "umanahu melekh" to be kohein gadol, The point
of the mishnah is that they can stay married, as actually happened in
this event.
The gemara comments on the language of "manahu" rather than the expected
"nisnamneh" to denote that the appointment wasn't the usual approval
of a candidate selected by the kohanim and vetted by Sanhedrin.
Then the gemara says she spent two qavin ("tarqav" = trei + qav) of
dinarim to buy it. The gemara in Yuma makes this last point as well.
Josephus (Antiquities XX 9:4
<http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/complete.ii.xxi.ix.html>)
wrote that he became KG during the reign of Herod Agrippa II. Nothing
about how. The translation reads weird, calls him "Jesus the son of
Gamaliel".
I went to the Soncino, since I don't know who else would comment on a
gemara - Josephus interaction. Fn 16 on Yuma, 20 on Yevamos make the
identity. They first opine that "Jannai is often employed in the Talmud
as a general patronymic for Hasmonean and Herodian rulers."
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - R' Binyamin Hecht
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 11:30:47 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] HILCHOS KIBUD AV V?EIM
See
http://halachafortodaycom.blogspot.com/2013/02/archives-hilc
hos-kibud-av-veim.html
Some selections from this site.
The Aseres HaDibros, the Ten Commandments given
to us by Hashem on Har Sinai are divided into two
parts, the first five are commandments between
man and Hashem (Bein Adam L?Makom) and the last
five are commandments between man and fellow man (Bein Adam L?Chaveiro)
Kibud Av V?Eim ,the fifth of the Aseres HaDibros,
is listed amongst the commandments that are
between man and Hashem even though it is
seemingly a commandment that is only between man and man.
The reason for this is that honoring one?s parents is akin to honoring Hashem.
There are 3 partners in every human being, the
father, the mother and Hashem. If one honors any
of the three it is as if all three have been
honored, and if one dishonors any of the three
it?s as if all three have been dishonored.
1)It is prohibited to contradict a parent.
(Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah Siman 240:2)
If a parent has a verbal disagreement with
another person, and the child tells the other
person ?I concur with your view?, it is
considered contradicting the parent and is prohibited. (Shach Yoreh Deah 240:2)
2) According to some Poskim this prohibition is
only in the presence of the parent. Other Poskim,
however, maintain that even not in the presence
of the parent it is prohibited.
1)It is forbidden to call a parent or refer to
them by their name; rather they need to be
referred to as ?My father [my teacher]? or ?My mother?.
1) What constitutes ?Kibud, respecting? parents?
One must speak to their parents softly, with
respect the way one would speak to a king.
1) Children are obligated to stand up for their
parents when they enter a room.
1) If a parent does something that is against the
Torah and a child sees, the child should not say
?You transgressed a Torah prohibition?, as
bluntly saying so will cause the parent embarrassment.
Rather, the child should say something to the
effect of: ?Father? Does it say in the Torah that
one should not?.?? in a way that sounds like a
question and not like a chastisement or rebuke,
and the parent will realize on their own that they have committed the sin.
1) If one?s father asks for a glass of water or
any other task, and at the same time
his/her mother asked for a glass of water or
another task, tending to the father?s needs
takes precedence, as the son/daughter and the
mother are both obligated to respect the father/husband.
2) If a parent is sleeping it is forbidden to wake them up.
See the above URL for more. YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150729/c2425453/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 11:51:09 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Molad
On 07/29/2015 11:33 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>
> But few if any of us hold that the date line is 90 deg east of Y-m,
> east down 125.2 deg E, down Dongeng St in Changchun, China. To quote
> R Dovid Heber at<http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline.htm>:
> Families on the eastern strip of Dongfeng Street would recite
> kiddush while families a block to the west would recite havdala.
> It may be possible for those who want two days of Shabbos to walk
> one block eastbound, down Dongfeng Street, after Seuda Shlishis and
> start Shabbos again. Those who want to skip almost all of Shabbos
> could take a short stroll westbound, and go from sunset Friday to
> sunset Saturday.
> (This post needed something light to leaven it.)
Shu"T Bnai Tziyon points to a gemara about two villages within techum
shabbos, where it was Yom Kippur in one and not the other, because that
was the last place the messenger had made it before sunset. (I can't
figure out how that actually worked, but that is what the gemara says.)
He avoids the awkwardness of the situation posited in this clip by
positing that the line is not one-dimensional but is several miles wide,
and that the area inside the line has an official din of sofek, like
bein hashmoshos.
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 19:21:20 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] trivia questions
saw some trivia questions:
1) Name 2 psukim in the Torah and 5 in Tanach that contain all the letters
of the alph-bet (I only know one)
2) name at least 2 halachot that we learn from wicked people in Tanach
--
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150729/70d377a9/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 12:51:38 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] trivia questions
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 07:21:20PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: 1) Name 2 psukim in the Torah and 5 in Tanach that contain all the letters
: of the alph-bet (I only know one)
Soferim use Tzefania 3:8 to show their penmanship, because it not only
includes all 22 letters, it also includes all the sofios. Is that a
way to denote total ultimate justice (the meaning of the words
<http://j.mp/1IKFV9Z>) or what?
This question is easier than that, just asking for 22 letters, not
whether sofis or not.
I already heard this one so I will leave the other 6 for others.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 11:58:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] yehoshua ben gamla
On 07/29/2015 11:01 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> according to the Hebrew wikipedia
Which is no more authoritative than English WP, and in fact seems to
have looser rules regarding sourcing.
> Matyha bat Baytus
Martha.
> As we discussed it couldn't be from Alexander Jannai
As Tosfos already points out, in both places where the gemara quotes
this memra.
> they guess that it was from Agripas II.
That seems like a good guess, that the Yannai in the memra refers to
the king Josephus calls Herod Agrippa II, but it is only a guess.
On 07/29/2015 12:07 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I went to the Soncino, since I don't know who else would comment on a
> gemara - Josephus interaction. Fn 16 on Yuma, 20 on Yevamos make the
> identity. They first opine that "Jannai is often employed in the Talmud
> as a general patronymic for Hasmonean and Herodian rulers."
Which, for all we know, it may have been.
--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 13:13:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] trivia questions
On 07/29/2015 12:21 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> 2) name at least 2 halachot that we learn from wicked people in Tanach
1. The definition of an "edah" from "this wicked edah".
2. Hezek re'iyah from Bil'am.
3. Standing for a davar shebikdusha, from Eglon.
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
Go to top.
Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:57:24 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] De-Chokifying Arayos
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 12:11:28PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R"n Toby Katz wrote:
: > It seems to me we are using the words "psak" and "poskim" too
: > loosely. If it's psak you want, I think all sources, rishonim
: > and acharonim, agree that marital intercourse is always mutar....
: > What we are really talking about
: > here is hashkafa, not psak -- even if it is in the Shulchan
: > Aruch. What frequency is optimum? ... ...
:
: Maybe, and maybe not. Let's look at the words.
:
: I'm focusing on Orach Chaim 240. The word "asur" appears a fair amount
: of the time, but there are other categorizations used as well, such as
: "lo y'hay" (don't be that sort of person), or "lo [insert verb here]"
: (don't do that). I was once told that the word "asur" is to be taken
: literally, but the other terms are not as strong, and simply means that
: these actions are ideally to be avoided, actually mutar (which might
: also be RTK's point).
Which is why I quibbled with RnTK's language. Becauser I think it's
assur -- really and actually assur -- not to try for perishus where
possible. It's a bitul asei of "qedoshim tihyu".
However, a mitzvah of hilkhos dei'os is to stretch, to move the nequdas
habechirah and is therefore not only "at least partly subjective" but
necessarily subjective. And if the criteria for behavior could be spelled
out non-subjectively, they would be spelled out in chovos ha'eivarim.
: I had posted:
:: Zeh haklal: Eating is proper as long as you don't overdo it.
:: Sex is proper as long as you minimize it.
: R' Micha Berger responded:
:> ... because of the biological differences. Sex differs in two ways:
:> ... 2- You can survive without it. A few days without food though...
: Really? Can we really survive without it? You and me, I suppose,
: but that's because we are male.
Under normal circumstances, one can't go 3 days without food and
water. Not just "one would be miserable if", but actual death.
I am not sure how you could compare the need for intimacy to
that kind of mechanistic do-or-die.
: RTK referenced mitzvas onah. In the Torah's view, sex is as essential
: as food and shelter are. But only for women.
I disagree. And BTW, my #1 which you ellided /was/ mitzvas onah.
: Regardless of whether we're talking about physical closeness
: or emotional closeness, it seems that the Torah is concerned about
: closeness only for the woman, and not for the man. For women, closeness
: is a need which must be met; for men, closeness is a taavah which must
: be controlled.
Or, the Torah presumes that opportunity is in the hands of men. Not
a difference in desire. Or -- a 3rd possibility -- lehefech, men
are presumed more likely to get distracted by their own taavos and
objectify their spouse and therefore the chiyuv of onah to focus
on someone else's psychological needs.
In any case, the requirement to avoid misery would motivate a chiyuv,
one needn't define it as a need. Esperically since biologically, it's
not necessary for survival the way food, drink or air are.
But getting back to what you're saying here... Let me repeat point #1
in different phrasing:
Because onah is indeed a chiyuv, saying that it should be minimized
outside the realm of mitzvah isn't that much of a minimization.
And yet, the threat of erotic desire becoming an end in itself is
both more damaging, since there will be other victims beyond the
self-destructive aspect and more likely. (In most people's psychology --
it's not like there is an internet food "porn" industry.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Go to top.
Message: 13
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:37:27 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] avelut after 12 months
R' Eli Turkel asked:
> The gemara says that Yoseph was certainly alive because Yaakov
> mourned him the whole time while we know that the dead are
> forgotten after 12 months ...
>
> I have a personal problem with this statement. ... one never
> forgets a child
R"n Toby Katz answered:
> I don't think "gezeira al hameis" means the person is literally
> forgotten, but that the degree of mourning becomes less intense.
> ... the parent goes on with life, even if a heaviness always
> remains somewhere in the background.
I have had the same question as RET, and I thank RTK for this answer.
I have written on several occasions, about my belief that Chazal often
exaggerate, and this misleads those who are not used to their style of
speaking. I think we have here another example of the same thing. There's a
tendency to take Chazal at literal face value. We need to be more careful
when reading the poetry.
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2
Go to top.
Message: 14
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 15:02:31 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Parallels in Kiruv
Here's a quote from "Their Rock is Not Like Our Rock" - Daniel Strange
In a recent article addressed to evangelical pastors I outlined a three-point "to do" list that might begin to move us into this stance:
* Develop and deploy a biblically rich and nuanced theology of religions
* Discern and denounce the arrogance and intolerance of pluralism
* Demonstrate and display, in both word and deed, the unique power of the gospel to change lives and communities
My impression is the first two are not generally done by kiruv folks but I
was wondering if you replace gospel with orthodoxy and evangelical pastors
with kiruv professionals, what fits? Should it be considered as an
approach?
Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE
ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is
strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20150730/1b5ee443/attachment.htm>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
------------------------------
***************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."
A list of common acronyms is available at
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)