Volume 33: Number 80
Wed, 20 May 2015
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 17:36:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Announcing the Molad
On 05/18/2015 04:31 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>
> How do you know this? The Rambam (Qiddush Levana 6:1) appears to say
> it's the average of the first time the moon could be seen "kedei leida im
> yeira'eh hayarei'ach of lo yeira'eh.... bemahalakhtam ha'emtza'i,
> who haniqra 'molad'".
On the contrary, that Rambam says *explicitly* that the molad is the exact
moment of the conjunction, which is *not* when it can be seen. Read it again
and you will surely see this.
> As for why we announce the molad... The Yerei'im gives the answer
> Zev did.The MA quotes the Yerei'im and says that mevorkhim hachodesh
> is lezeikher the real qiddush hachodesh by Sanhedrin. Which is why
> we stand. RMF (IM OC 1:142) says this is in imitation of the qehillah
> who would stand when answering "Mequdash! Mequdash!"
Neither the Yere'im nor the MA even mention the announcement of the molad,
let alone give any reason for it. All the Yere'im says is that the announcement
of Rosh Chodesh in shul is not at all related to kidush hachodesh, but is
merely so people should know when Rosh Chodesh will be. The MA adds that
although this is true, the custom is to stand for it, as a zecher to kidush
hachodesh, which was done standing. R Akiva Eger asks how this could be so,
since we know that a beis din must sit, not stand. RMF answers thatkiddush
hachodesh was done notby the BD, but by the audience, after hearing the
BD's psak, and they were surely standing, and this is what the MA means.
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
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Message: 2
From: elazar teitz
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 17:49:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Zilzul Shabbos
RMicha Berger wrote:
>Among the arguments that came up in the discussion of the Kosher Switch
was that it's zilzul Shabbos.
>>The thought hit me, though... Refraining from operating electrical
devices has only been a potential issue for 125 years or so. And except
for Yekkes, most of our ancestors come from places where it has been
less than a century since electricity became part of our lives.
>So it's very hard to say that "not using electricity" is a defining
feature of the Shabbos experience.<
True; but not putting a light on or off *has* been a defining feature
of the Shabbos experience since the mitzva of Shabbos was given, so
accomplishing it by any means might properly be considered a zilzul
Shabbos. (Of course, by this argument, putting an electric light on or off
should be prohibited even if the use of electricity is not a m'lacha.)
>Contrast this to hotza'ah, including haavarah, which take up what seems
like 1/3 of chazal's discussion of issur melakhah (rough estimate from
Berakhos and Eruvin in mishna, Tosefta, Y-mi and Bavli).<
I assume that "Berakhos" should be replaced by "Shabbos."
>When community eruvin got started, wasn't there a much easier argument
of zilzul? Why wasn't it made? Indeed we use the general kelal of being
meiqil WRT eiruvin to quite an extent to build one. And what does the
fact that a community eruv is NOT zilzul Shabbos say about the nature
of zilzul Shabbos and its applicability to nidon didan?<
What tzuras hapesach and eiruv permit is not carrying prohibited by
the Torah. Rather, it is, in effect, a built-in exception to the issurim
imposed mid'rabbanan by two g'zeiros: the classification of certain areas,
which min haTorah are m'kom p'tur, as a new entity called karmelis, and the
imposing of a prohibition of hotza'a from one r'shus hayachid to another of
different ownership. Both were in use long before there was a city eruv.
E.g., persons sharing a two-family house with a common fenced yard would
make an eruv to permit carrying to and from their living quarters to the
others' and to the yard. Likewise, a house opening to an unfenced yard
would make a tzuras hapesach to permit carrying between house and yard.
And, of course, two houses opening to a common unfenced yard would make a
tzuras hapesach to "enclose" the yard, and then an eruv to permit carrying
among houses and yard.
The city eruv was not an introduction of a new practice, but a
larger-scale use of already common practices. How does this constitute
zilzul Shabbos?
EMT
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Message: 3
From: Chana Luntz
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 22:31:48 +0100
Subject: Re: [Avodah] If a woman can say "you do not need to redeem me
RZS writes:
>It should be borne in mind that there are still countries (including ones
>with substantial Jewish communities) where the need for pidyon is at least
>as common now as it probably was in Chazal's day.
Are you thinking of South America? I confess that is what springs to mind
from your suggestion, although how often ransom is really required in such
countries I don't know.
> Also that while in many countries paying ransoms may be technically
illegal, hardly anybody who is
>r"l in that situation cares about this.
But presumably you are talking about the same ones (eg South America).
My question relates solely to countries, like Britain and Israel, to which
Rav Zylberstein was referring. He took it for granted that in fact it was
exceedingly uncommon for pidyon to be needed. I am not so sure it is so
uncommon, but I doubt very much that in these countries "hardly anybody who
is r"l in that situation cares about this". That is, while I know from the
press of numbers of cases in which pidyon has been needed for British and
Israeli citizens, in none of these cases were private individuals allowed to
redeem (despite them quite naturally wanting to, and possibly being willing
to do so, if they had not been restrained, whether by circumstances or
otherwise).
Clearly if one lives in a place where pidyon is common, and where, whatever
the technical law says, in practice individual family members redeem,
neither my question nor Rav Zylberstein's gets off the ground. But I don't
think the existence of a place in the world, that one would never
contemplate living in (and is not the locus of the ketuba), is relevant to
the obligations under that ketuba which must relate to the places that the
couple live and the governments under which they live. Even when it might
involve some less scrupulous situations - one of the mothers in our school
in England had the situation that her sons were effectively kidnapped by her
ex-husband and held in Russia. And while yes, ultimately she found where
they were hidden by means of a private investigator, which cost her private
money, she would never have been able to extract them had: (a) Russia not
signed up to the Hague convention; (b) the Russian court given judgment in
her favour; and (c) the Russian police at the bequest of the English
government on the basis of the Russian judgment actually going in and
retrieving the boys (whose location they had singularly failed to identify
until the private investigator had provided the cast iron information as to
where they were). And she would have struggled to have brought them back
into England without the rulings of the Russian authorities. And even if an
adult is different, I cannot see the British government allowing one of its
citizens to go off and try and attempt pidyon of another of its citizens
without its active involvement, it being seen as cutting across its foreign
policy (even if this was occurring in a place where ransom payments amongst
locals was common).
>Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
Regards
Chana
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 18:53:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] measurement error
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 01:52:11PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote:
: In an appreciated bit of siyata dishmaya, my Arukh haShulchan yomi
: sechedule <http://www.aishdas.org/luaach> brought me to a primary source
: on this subject -- AhS OC 363:32-35. The he.WikiSource.org ("Vikiteqst")
: copy is at <http://j.mp/1DMRNlm>
...
: When dealing with mavui, where there is only one mavui and therefore one
: measuring process to be used for everyone, the above applies. However,
: when the measurement is only for one person's use, tbey should be
: measuring for himself, with his own norms.
: And here he adds a touch of subjectivity: a person should measure how
: far he himself could walk. And the rule of carrying in rh"r a distance
: of no more 4 of one's own amos is brought into that umbrella.
: The reason for the general rule is to cover the personal amos of the
: people who will be using the measuring.
: BUT, and this is why I do not follow, he opened se'if 32 by telling us
: the variability is 1/48 of the total (1/24 of an etzba per ammah). Which
: is far less than the variability in forearm lengths in most groups of
: people. For example, my own sukkah is used by Yoni, who stands 6'3" and by
: my own 5'3" -- and my arms are on the shorter side, even proportionally.
: When we hold up elbows together, my ammah ends just past his wrist. Not
: within 47/48 of eachother.
I came across another AhS datapoint for this thread, OC 586:14.
He quotes the Rambam Shofar 1:5, discussing the minimum length of a
shofar: that you can hold it in your hand and it's visible on either end.
The AhS explains the intent as being the size of the toqei'ah's hand, but
rather an average person's hands, "veshi'uro tefach sheheim 4 godelim".
Then there is a debate whether the tefach has to be a generous one, so
as to be visible (Tur, quoting Ri Gei'os) or a narrow one (Tur himself
and SA), which is still visible if the toqei'ah uses four fingers --
after all, they'll still be narrower than 4 thumbs.
So the shiur is neither personal nor really the standard tefach. It is
literally as the gemara says, what can be held and still seen. Which is
why there is a machloqes about where the tefach stands in relation to the
real shiur. But, visible if hypothetically held by an average hand. And
if the tqoei'ah has wide hands, he could hold a minimal shofar without
it being visible, and it would still be kosher.
The AhS also says this was already explained in Nidah 26b, which is a
depressing gemara about miscarriages, and a tefach comes up in shiurim
for tum'ah, but I didn't see where it mentionrs our topic of what kind
of tefach is used.
What I find even more interesting is that there is no chiluq being drawn
between someone who blows in shul and someone who blows just for himself.
Wouldn't the rule from OC 363 mean that someone in the latter situation
should use what is visible when their own hand holds it?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 44th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 6 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Gevurah sheb'Malchus: What type of justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507 does unity demand?
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 18:35:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] If a woman can say "you do not need to redeem me
On 05/18/2015 05:31 PM, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
> RZS writes:
>
>> It should be borne in mind that there are still countries (including ones
>> with substantial Jewish communities) where the need for pidyon is at least
>> as common now as it probably was in Chazal's day.
>
> Are you thinking of South America?
Well, Latin America (so as to include Mexico). There are also other such
countries, such as India, the Philippines, Nigeria, where the need for
pidyon is common, but there are not a lot of Jews living there.
> But I don't
> think the existence of a place in the world, that one would never
> contemplate living in (and is not the locus of the ketuba), is relevant to
> the obligations under that ketuba which must relate to the places that the
> couple live and the governments under which they live.
Even a couple marrying in such a country must contemplate the possibility
that one or both might one day travel to a country where kidnapping is common,
and be kidnapped. Even in Chazal's day the danger was not so much where people
lived as on the highways and the seas, where they might travel.
Also, I am not at all sure that it is actually illegal in most normal countries
to pay ransom. What is illegal is giving *anything* to groups that are officially
listed by that country's government as terrorists. If the kidnappers are not on
the list, so that it would be legal to give them a gift, then I don't think there's
a law against paying them ransom. (Perhaps there should be.)
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Joseph Kaplan
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:32:10 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Standing at a Chupah
"Truth be told, I have seen the following many times. When the
grandparents who are 70 or more years old walk down, no one stands for
them. However, when the chosson and kallah walk down everyone stands for
them."
At almost every MO wedding I've attended over the past 5-10 years, everyone
stood when the grandparents walked down whether they were older than 70 or
not. But if, God willing, I'm around for my grandchildren's weddings, I plan
to walk (or, if necessary, wheelchair) down the aisle whether anybody stands
for me or not.
Joseph
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:18:09 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Zilzul Shabbos
On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 05:49:16PM -0400, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:
:> So it's very hard to say that "not using electricity" is a defining
:> feature of the Shabbos experience.
: True; but not putting a light on or off *has* been a defining feature
: of the Shabbos experience since the mitzva of Shabbos was given, so
: accomplishing it by any means might properly be considered a zilzul
: Shabbos. (Of course, by this argument, putting an electric light on or off
: should be prohibited even if the use of electricity is not a m'lacha.)
As would replacing gefilte fish with sushi?
It's not that people from Sinai to around 100 years ago actually
experienced avoiding the lightswitch, nor did they even consciously
experience not having one -- since there was no conception of an
alternative. Not using electricity, and saying that qedushas shabbos
requires avoiding electricity are really two different things,
experientially.
100 years ago we had an opportunity to do something new on Shabbos,
much like when shomerei Shabbos first learned of sushi. The difference
is that we did assur one new opportunity, and not the other.
...
: What tzuras hapesach and eiruv permit is not carrying prohibited by
: the Torah. Rather, it is, in effect, a built-in exception to the issurim
: imposed mid'rabbanan by two g'zeiros...
...
: The city eruv was not an introduction of a new practice, but a
: larger-scale use of already common practices. How does this constitute
: zilzul Shabbos?
Yes, that explains why it's nothing clearer cut than zilzul Shabbos.
AIUI, worrying about zilzul means that the mechanism is mutar, but
the goal is one that cheapens Shabbos, removes some of the feeling of
its qedushah.
Like taking the pre-existing concept of eiruv as a way to have a reshus
that was no included in Shelomo ubeis dino's original issur hotza'ah
and stretching it to a much bigger area than ever before, so that most
people never have reason to leave it most weeks. So that the entire
issur goes from being one of the dominant features of Shabbos (judging
just in blatt of discussion) to barely ever experienced.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 45th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 6 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Malchus: What is the beauty of
Fax: (270) 514-1507 unity (on all levels of relationship)?
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Message: 8
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 22:46:01 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] donor egg
"A 65-year-old Bnei Brak woman gave birth this week, becoming the oldest
woman to give birth in Israel. The ultra-Orthodox woman and her 67-year-old
husband had been battling infertility for 46 years before the birth at Kfar
Sava?s Meir hospital.
After fertility treatments abroad and with the help of a donor egg, the
woman became pregnant, giving birth to a 2.685-kg baby in her 35th week of
pregnancy.
?To the best of my knowledge, this is the oldest woman to give birth in
Israel. It is extremely rare that pregnancy at this age ends well.
The ultra-Orthodox circle from which the couple comes attributed the
pregnancy and birth to a blessing the woman received from a Hassidic rabbi.
"
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/.premium-1.657230
Given all the halachic controversy of who is the halachic mother I am a
little surprised
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 9
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 17:11:29 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] Why didn't the other nations accept the Torah?
There is a famous Medrash that before offering the Torah to the Jewish
people Hashem offered it to the other nations of the world.
"First He approached the children of Esav and asked them, "Do you wish to
accept the Torah?" They replied, "What is written in it?" "Do not murder."
They said, "...Our father was assured that, 'By your sword will you live
(Bereishit 27:40)!'"
Next Hashem went to the children of Ammon and Moav, and asked, "Do you wish
to accept the Torah?" They asked, "What is written in it?" "Do not commit
sexual immorality." They responded, "Master of the Universe, our very
existence is based on an immoral act!"
Hashem then went to the children of Yishmael, and asked them, "Do you wish
to accept the Torah?" They asked, "What is written in it?" "Do not steal."
They responded, "Master of the Universe, the essence of our father was to
be a bandit, as it is written, 'And he will be a man of the wild; his hand
will be in all...'" (Bereishit 16:12)."
Sifri, Ve'Zot HaBracha #343
However, the Medrash has an obvious question. All of the examples of Torah
prohibitions given by the Medrash, are also prohibited by the 7 mitzvos of
Bnei Noach. The Bnei Eisav were already prohibited from murder so how would
accepting the Torah make things worse for them? The same goes for arayos
and stealing, these were already prohibited to them anyway so why does the
medrash specifically pick these as examples for Torah prohibitions?
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 14:16:47 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Why didn't the other nations accept the Torah?
On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 05:11:29PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: However, the Medrash has an obvious question. All of the examples of Torah
: prohibitions given by the Medrash, are also prohibited by the 7 mitzvos of
: Bnei Noach. The Bnei Eisav were already prohibited from murder so how would
: accepting the Torah make things worse for them? The same goes for arayos
: and stealing, these were already prohibited to them anyway so why does the
: medrash specifically pick these as examples for Torah prohibitions?
I raised this and a second question in
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/parashas-lekh-lekha-5756>:
Hashem's answer to each of the nations is strange. Why choose the one
sin their forefather was known for? Is that how you would do kiruv,
starting with the hard stuff?
By comparing this medrash to the opening pasuk in this week's parshah,
[Lekh Lekha,] we can get a better understanding of the point of
the story.
"Hashem said to Avram, `Go for yourself from your homeland, from your
birthplace and from your father's house to the land which I will show
you'." (12:1) The first sentence recorded in the Torah of the Jewish
mission on earth is a commandment for Avram to leave his home and
his father.
Avram didn't say, "I can't worship G-d because my very substance
his idolatry, because my father, Terach, manufactures idols". Hashem
orders Avram to leave the culture that made him, to leave his father's
sphere of influence, and he does.
Avram's reply was "And Avram went, just as G-d told him". (12:4)
If Hashem said he could change, rise above Ur Casdim to become fit
for both the land of Israel and the father of the people of Israel,
then he goes.
Is man a creature of fate or of destiny? Is his future foretold,
etched in rock, unchangeable? Or can he rebuild himself into something
greater than he was?
Clearly the Torah insists on the latter. The very key to accepting
the Torah is to be committed to use its ideas and its mitzvos to
improve and to grow.
This was the failing ascribed to the other nations in the medrash. They
saw a given flaw in their national character as their substance,
immutable. Hashem wasn't asking them about a particular prohibition,
but about their commitment to leave their "father's house". If they
do not believe they can change, what purpose can getting the Torah
serve them?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 46th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
Fax: (270) 514-1507 "unity" be over domineering?
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 14:48:05 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Why didn't the other nations accept the Torah?
On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 05:11:29PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: The Bnei Eisav were already prohibited from murder so how would
: accepting the Torah make things worse for them? The same goes for arayos
: and stealing, these were already prohibited to them anyway sowhy does the
: medrash specifically pick these as examples for Torah prohibitions?
Perhaps that was His point: you can't even keep the mitzvos you already
have, so how can you want more?
On 05/20/2015 02:16 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I raised this and a second question in
> <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/parashas-lekh-lekha-5756>:
> Hashem's answer to each of the nations is strange. Why choose the one
> sin their forefather was known for? Is that how you would do kiruv,
> starting with the hard stuff?
Why the premise that the purpose was kiruv? On the contrary, I think the
medrash's intent is clear, that Hashem did *not* want them to accept His
offer, and thus pitched it in the manner most likely to be rejected. The
only purpose of making the offer in the first place was so they wouldn't
be able to complain that they hadn't been given the chance. He wasn't
trying to sell it to them, He was showing them why they didn't want it,
and therefore shouldn't be upset that the Jews were getting it.
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
Go to top.
Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 20:29:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] 65 Year-Old Woman Gives Birth to First
On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 02:16:59PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Areivim wrote:
: If we were speaking Lashon Hakodesh, you'd be correct - Bar Mitzvah is
: a noun, and only a noun. However, we are clearly speaking English, and
: several dictionaries tell me that in English, "Bar Mitzvah" is both a noun
: and a verb. See, for example, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bar+mitzvah
: which gives "bar mitzvahed" (and other forms) as examples.
: Languages are funny this way. Stuff can change when a word enters a
: new language.
However, there is no real concept correspnding to the English word "bar
mitzvahed". The borrowing was primarily done by non-traditional Jews,
who think that being called up to the Torah changes your status.
But in reality, "bar mitzvahed" makes as much sense as saying someone
pubertied or menopaused. We O could borrow the word as shorthand for
"became a bar mitzah" but since the original borrowing is really based
on a misunderstanding of the Torah, why should we? It'll just make it
harder to clear up the mistake.
: If I'm not mistaken, the Yiddish word for "holiday" is pronounced
: "yuntif", and it is spelled "yud vav memsofit blankspace tes vav beis",
: and is considered a single word despite the fact...
IIRC, on the NY State Yiddish Regents Examination in the late 1970s,
it was spelled as it sounds, one word, yud-alef-nun-tes-eyin-ende fei
(w/ a refuyah line over it).
(R' Riskin, whose HS I attended, required a foreign language, and Hebrew
doesn't count as "foreign". The Hebrew Regents exam was a separate
requirement to graduate. As was Red Cross swimming certification and you
could choose either CPR or First Aid. The latter two were because the
HS is the father's shaliach for all of chinukh and education. Anyway,
I already had some background in Yiddish, and I heard that the Yiddish
regents eere easier than more popular languages like Spanish or French,
so...)
But the, Chassidishe Yiddish and YIVO Yiddish (the legacy of Litvishe
Yiddishists) are different dialects.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 46th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
Fax: (270) 514-1507 "unity" be over domineering?
Go to top.
Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 20:53:29 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Admin: [Areivim] 65 Year-Old Woman Gives Birth to
The previous email was misdirected. Replies to it will not be
accepted. (On Avodah. If Areivim's mods approve it, reply there.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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A list of common acronyms is available at
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)