Volume 33: Number 78
Mon, 18 May 2015
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Sholom Simon
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 13:18:14 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] explanation
I commend you for having such guests at your table!
> the torah's
law on who may do the actual avodah [ ie mum-free] is not PC by today's
standards, and in fact was a source of consternation for some shabbos
guests last week [ not to mention the column of a heterodox clergylady
in the local paper, who says she can't even read those passages] . i
didn't have an answer other than to say [ other than the chok aspect]
that the RBSO was looking from the perspective of the kahal and their
kovod, and how they would react or be distracted by a baal mum. can
someone supply a better take ?
This is, indeed, a difficult passage.
R Jonathan Sacks has a good take on it -- which is generally along the
lines of what you suggested, but a slightly different (and more
big-picture) take, and, of course articulated extremely well.
An
excerpt:
> Kugel also writes, "Most people, when they see someone
ravaged by chemotherapy, just tend to keep their distance." He quotes
Psalm 38:12, "My friends and companions stand back at the sight of my
affliction; even those closest to me keep their distance." Although the
physical reactions to chemotherapy are quite different from a skin
disease or a bodily abnormality, they tend to generate the same feeling
in others, part of which has to do with the thought "This could happen
to me." They remind us of the "thousand natural shocks that flesh is
heir to."
>
> This is the logic - if logic is the right word - of
Tumah. It has nothing to do with rationality and everything to do with
emotion (Recall Pascal's remark that "the heart has its reasons of which
reason knows nothing"). Tumah does not mean defilement. It means that
which distracts from eternity and infinity by making us forcibly aware
of mortality, of the fact that we are physical beings in a physical
world.
If the above interests you at all, I encourage you to read the
whole thing: http://www.aish.com/tp/i/sacks/149811775.html [1]
--
Sholom
Links:
------
[1]
http://www.aish.com/tp/i/sacks/149811775.html
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Message: 2
From: Dov Weinstock
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 12:51:10 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Explanation
On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 12:27 PM, via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
wrote:
> the torah's law on who may do the actual avodah [ ie mum-free] is not PC
> by today's standards, and in fact was a source of consternation for some
> shabbos guests last week [ not to mention the column of a heterodox
> clergylady in the local paper, who says she can't even read those passages]
> . i didn't have an answer other than to say [ other than the chok aspect]
> that the RBSO was looking from the perspective of the kahal and their
> kovod, and how they would react or be distracted by a baal mum.
>
> can someone supply a better take ?
>
May I suggest the following:
http://rabbidovlinzer.blogspot.com/2014_04_27_archive.html
Dov Weinstock
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 06:09:56 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Zilzul Shabbos
Among the arguments that came up in the discussion of the Kosher Switch
was that it's zilzul Shabbos.
The thought hit me, though... Refraining from operating electrical
devices has only been a potential issue for 125 years or so. And except
for Yekkes, most of our ancestors come from places where it has been
less than a century since electricity became part of our lives.
So it's very hard to say that "not using electricity" is a defining
feature of the Shabbos experience.
Contrast this to hotza'ah, including haavarah, which take up what seems
like 1/3 of chazal's discussion of issur melakhah (rough estimate from
Berakhos and Eruvin in mishna, Tosefta, Y-mi and Bavli).
When community eruvin got started, wasn't there a much easier argument
of zilzul? Why wasn't it made? Indeed we use the general kelal of being
meiqil WRT eiruvin to quite an extent to build one. And what does the
fact that a community eruv is NOT zilzul Shabbos say about the nature
of zilzul Shabbos and its applicability to nidon didan?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 39th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 5 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Netzach sheb'Yesod: What is imposing about a
Fax: (270) 514-1507 reliable person?
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 15:26:58 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] RMA
On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 06:42:58AM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: He is now starting a series on religious autonomy. In particular he holds
: that one goes to a rabbi for a psak only if he is in doubt. If one has
: seriously learned the halachaot and is convinced of the "truth" then he
: should follow his own psak and there is no need to go to a "higher
: authority".
Interesting. Does "seriously learned the halakhos" translate to higi'ah
lehora'ah, or something less?
RHS requires a certainly level of general knowledge. See Sanhedrin 5a-b.
But it also fits RHS's hashkafah that halakhah is an inseperable whole.
And so Rebbe doesn't just tell us that night Shema can be said at
sundown, he ties it to the law of tevul yom.
And RHS similarly advises his talmidim to look to gedolim from their own
camp because one with whom they disagree hashkafically is likely to see
even apparenty unrelated halakhos differently. Listen to
<http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/807758> (RAM transcripted
other snippets from this talk for one of our many discussions of da'as
Torah at <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol32/v32n029.shtml#13>.)
For that matter, 5b talks about the need to get a heter hora'ah even if
one knows enough to pasqen. But then, the gemara is discussing
deciding for others, not only oneself.
OTOH, pasqening for oneself has a major problem that one doesn't face when
answering others' questions -- vested interest vs objectivity. Listen to
R Jonathan Ziring's shiur on the topic at
<http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/826651>.
In particular, his very first source (see link to mar'eh meqomos sheet)
Nissah 20b. Yalta, "Rebbetzin Nachman", asks her mar'os questions of
Rabbah bar bar Chanah and Rabbi Yitzchaq bereih deR' Yehudah, not her
husband. Similarly mishnah Nega'im 2:5 saying you can't pasen nega'im
even of relatives, Bekhoros 31a about judging one's own bekhoros.
So, I would think that not being in doubt is too easily a delusion.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 39th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 5 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Netzach sheb'Yesod: What is imposing about a
Fax: (270) 514-1507 reliable person?
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 15:54:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] shabbat mikes
On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 01:18:22AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Saul Newman asked:
:> i thought that tzomet products are meant for sha'at
:> hadchak /bedieved
: ...
: But I think that the real answer to your question might be: "If the people
: in shul can't hear the rabbi or the chazan, that IS a shaas hadchak."
Both letzorekh mitzvah and tzarkhei tzibbur are usually classified with
she'as hadechaq and hefsed meruba. The two combined is why shuls have such
wide lattitude with amira le'akum. (And perhaps either alone? I dunno.) So
if a properly designed PA system is a shevus or other derabannan, why
not permit this too?
BTW, R/Dr Yisrael Rozen of Machon Zomet makes a point of noting that
the issues seem to be the same whether the PA system is electrical or
based on air pressure.
See <http://www.zomet.org.il/eng/?CategoryID=198&;ArticleID=283#c1>
Microphones and Amplifiers on Shabbat
Rabbi Yisrael Rozen
C. Microphones Operating on Air Pressure
1. System Description
Recently, the idea of a microphone which operates on air pressure,
rather than electricity, has been proposed. A company in the United
States is in the process of developing this "air-mike," although to the
best of my knowledge, the project is still in the experimental stage.
The device consists of a container of compressed air[12] and a system
of pipes in which the compressed air flows. After one speaks into
a horn-like input, his voice is carried on the stream of compressed
air in the pipes. Acoustic adjustment (which apparently lies at the
heart of the idea) then causes the voice waves to be amplified...
2. Comparison to an Electronic Microphone
Several rabbis have permitted the use of air microphones on Shabbat,
viewing it as an appropriate means of sound amplification for a
synagogue. I question the distinction between an air microphone and
a regular microphone - if we permit one, we must permit the other...
Let me explain. We have shown that, given the current technology,
the main problems with using a microphone on Shabbat have nothing to
do with the fact that it runs on electricity. The problems concern
the decree of klei shir, the fear that one will repair it, hashma'at
kol like a water mill, avsha milta, denigration of Shabbat, and the
suspicion of onlookers. Regarding all but the last of these, I see
no difference between an air microphone and a regular microphone. In
my opinion, an air microphone is a kli shir exactly like a shofar
or trumpet; it creates a loud noise like a water mill; there exists
the possibility that one will try to adjust it etc.. If you wish to
claim that it is not a kli shir because it transmits speech; that we
should not innovate a decree of "lest one repair it;" that it does not
resemble a water mill because everyone knows that there is no Shabbat
violation involved - then the same considerations should apply to a
regular microphone as well. Only regarding the suspicion of onlookers
might there be a difference between the two types of microphones;
with an electric microphone, onlookers may think that an electric
circuit was created on Shabbat. But we have already explained that
even if one would turn on existing equipment on Shabbat, he would
violate only a rabbinic prohibition, and we are not concerned with
creating suspicion regarding rabbinic prohibitions. We also noted
above that "everyone knows" that the equipment was turned on either
before Shabbat or by means of a timer, and thus resembles a chiming
clock (which is permitted).
I have heard that there are those who permit the air microphone since
the speaker's original voice is carried through the pipes (although
clearly the majority of the sound waves reaching the audience's ears
comes from the air pumped by the compressor). I am astonished at
this claim: even in an actual musical instrument (such as a trumpet)
the player's breath is mixed in, and nevertheless it is forbidden!
In many musical instruments, the sound comes mainly from an "echo
chamber," whose geometry shapes and amplifies the sound. To the best of
my understanding, an air microphone operates on the same principle.[13]
In my opinion, halachic definitions (in all fields) do not stem from
scientific, physical, or technical definitions. The definitions of
klei shir and hashma'at kol are not based on the technology of sound
production, wave dispersion, or other acoustic considerations. The
question at hand is whether these devices are included in the rabbinic
decree of klei shir or not. In this regard, it does not matter whether
one makes his voice heard by means of an electric or an air microphone.
Some of those who give a blanket permit to use an air microphone claim
that it does not amplify the speaker's voice, but merely carries it. On
the basis of material I have received from the factory, I find this
claim to be mistaken. Therefore, as far as klei shir and hashma'at kol
are concerned, the two types of microphones are identical.
...
3. Responsa Which Erred in the Realia
...
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 39th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 5 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Netzach sheb'Yesod: What is imposing about a
Fax: (270) 514-1507 reliable person?
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 16:14:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] shabbat mikes
On 05/13/2015 03:54 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Both letzorekh mitzvah and tzarkhei tzibbur are usually classified with
> she'as hadechaq and hefsed meruba. The two combined is why shuls have such
> wide lattitude with amira le'akum. (And perhaps either alone? I dunno.)
Letzorech mitzvah is not enough to justify amira lenochri for an issur
derabanan, unless the mitzvah absolutely cannot be fulfilled without it.
For instance, if one is pitch darkness one may ask a nochri to bring a
lit candle through a communal chatzer that has no eruv, because oneg
shabbos is impossible in complete darkness; but if there is already at
least dim lighting, so that some minimal oneg shabbos is possible, one
is *not* allowed to have a nochri bring another candle.
Tzorchei tzibbur, OTOH, seems to justify amira lenochri for almost anything.
[Quoting R Rosen]
> The problems concern the decree of klei shir, the fear that one will
> repair it, hashma'at kol like a water mill, avsha milta, denigration
> of Shabbat, and the suspicion of onlookers.
He's listing the same thing multiple times. "Hashma'at kol like a water
mill" *is* "avsha milsa", i.e. passersby will hear it running and know that
a Jew's business is operating on Shabbos, and the problem with that is that
they will think the Jew is transgressing amira lenochri. These are not
separate issues.
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
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Message: 7
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 23:32:51 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] RMA
<<OTOH, pasqening for oneself has a major problem that one doesn't face when
answering others' questions -- vested interest vs objectivity. >>
I understand the concern. However, there is no halacha that a rabbi can't
pasken on his own chicken.
In fact in real life we all pasken for ourselves on some level. Anytime one
has a shabbat question
\he can't always run to the LOR. One usually ends up paskening based on
whatever knowledge
and mesorah one has. This is what makes the life of a Baal Teshuva very
difficult.
Certainly what RMA and many others are against is running to the LOR or
even gadol hador
with every question.
I have heard complaints from shul rabbis that some congregants come with
questions they could
easily look upo themselves but prefer to ask the rabbi so that the rabbi
notes how serious they are.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 8
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:35:43 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] RMA
.
I have heard complaints from shul rabbis that some congregants come with questions they could
easily look upo themselves but prefer to ask the rabbi so that the rabbi notes how serious they are.
----------------------
True, but sometimes it may be to establish a connection (yes, funny coming from me-but it is true)
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 18:04:22 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] RMA
On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 11:32:51PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> OTOH, pasqening for oneself has a major problem that one doesn't face when
:> answering others' questions -- vested interest vs objectivity.
:
: I understand the concern. However, there is no halacha that a rabbi can't
: pasken on his own chicken.
: In fact in real life we all pasken for ourselves on some level. Anytime one
: has a shabbat question he can't always run to the LOR...
I was using "pesaq" to refer specifically to open questions that require
shiqul hada'as. Your typical Shabbos question is about a devar mishnah.
To quote Rt Chana Luntz from Mon, 7 Sep 1998, 8:33pm BDT: 20:33:38 +0100,
a post about not combining chumeros:
> ... the Rashba on our daf in Chullin [43b], who hold that a Rav only
> needs to pay if there is shikul hadaas and not a mistake in a dvar
> mishna, are forced to conclude from this that Rava's mistake was in
> shikul hadaas - see there].
It would seem that a devar mishnah is not a pesaq that the rav is
as responsible for our following his teaching rather than getting
the halakhah correctly from some other source.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 39th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 5 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Netzach sheb'Yesod: What is imposing about a
Fax: (270) 514-1507 reliable person?
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 11:55:08 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Laasok beDivrei Sorah
From R' Eliezer Eisenberg's blog Beis Vaad L'Chachamim (highly
recommended), at
http://beisvaad.blogspot.com/2015/05/bechukosai-at-my-grandsons
-bar-mitzva.html
A couple of personal comments ellided, mostly to save myself the bother
of transliterating more Hebrew text.
A belated mazal tov to the author,
G'Shabbos to all,
-micha
Friday, May 15, 2015
Bechukosai. At my grandson's Bar Mitzva
Drasha at the Bar Mitzva of Avraham Jofen, 5/14/15
...
The Gemara (Brachos 11b) and the rishonim there talk about the issue of
hefsek in Birkas HaTorah. There are those that hold that if a person
stops learning, he has to make a new bracha when he begins again, because
it is a hefsek from the first bracha. The Rishonim, the Agur and the
Rosh, say that it is not a hefsek, because even when you are not actually
learning, you have to consider what you can and cannot do according to
the dinim of the Torah. Even when you are in a place where you cannot
learn, you have to behave in a manner that is prescribed in the Torah.
As the Hafla'ah says, when you do business, it is not a hefsek, because
you are learning Choshen Mishpat. Every decision you make is examined
in the light of the Torah, so that is not a hefsek in limud.
I would put it this way. Torah is only a mitzvah when you learn al
menas laasos. Al menas laasos means that you don't learn superficially,
you make the Torah a part of who you are. On the contrary, if what
you learn is just on the surface, the learning itself is bitul Torah.
If the Mitzva of limud hatorah requires that it should make you into
a different person, do you think that carefully living the life of an
ehrilcheh ben Torah is a hefsek in limud hatorah? It's not a hefsek,
it is a hemshech, it is a kiyum, of the mitzvah of limud hatorah.
My father Ztz'l was very friendly with his lawyer, Bill Rosenthal.
Bill was an assimilated Jew. The only contact he had with the Jewish
religion was when he shook hands with my father. Nonetheless, he and
my father were good friends and respected each other. A lawyer for a
mortgage company once asked him which university my father studied at,
because he could brilliantly analyze contracts. Bill told him that my
father studied at Slabodka U.
He once asked my father, "You and I are very ethical and honest men.
I wouldn't take a penny that wasn't mine, and I have the highest standards
of behavior in business. You, too, are very moral, but you do it because
of your religious beliefs. Is there really any difference between us?
My father told him, on the spot, that there are three differences.
One is that for you, a dollar is a small matter, and a question involving
a million dollars is a big matter. To me, there is no difference. The
principal, the law, is what matters, and the sum of money is irrelevant.
Another difference is that let's say you carefully think an issue through,
and you decide the other side is right, and you let them win. you will
toss and turn at night, ,thinking that maybe you were really right. I,
on the other hand, if I decide that I am right, and I keep something that
had been disputed, I won't be able to sleep at night our of a concern that
maybe my decision was influenced by self interest. The third difference
is that while you and I are both successful people,, and we've both made
a lot of money, you think that you made the money yourself, and it's
100% yours to do with as you please. I believe that God decided that I
should have the money, and God gave me the money, and every dollar that
was given to me was given so that I use it in the right way.
So it's true, my father learned how to do business at Slabodka U.
Because he learned how to do business at Slabodka U, he was able to
give, on the spot, three excellent and lomdusheh chilukim about the
difference between Bill Rosenthal's moral code and his own moral code.
Doing business like that is not a hefsek in the mitzva of limud hatorah.
Farkert, it is the biggest kiyum and chizuk of limud hatorah and mussar
and yashrus. This is a kiyum of the passuk [im bechuqosai seleikhu],
as Rashi explains, [shetihyu ameilim baTorah].
It is this mesora which we bequeath to the Bar Mitzvah. ...
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Message: 11
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 16:39:23 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Learning Chumash with the Trop
My 6 year-old grandson who is in the first grade was taught the trop
at the same time he was being taught Chumash. The bottom line is
that when he says the Pesukim he has studies in yeshiva, he says
each word with the trop. I think this makes it easier for him to
remember the Pesukim.
When he davens, he says Shma with the trop!
I can only wonder why this is not done in all yeshivas.
When it will come time for him to lein at his Bar Mitzvah, it should
be much easier for him than for those boys who are taught Chumash
without the trop.
YL
llev...@stevens.edu
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