Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 54

Fri, 03 Apr 2015

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: David Wacholder
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 17:36:28 -0400
[Avodah] partnership - adoption - permanent irrevocable

 partnership - adoption - permanent irrevocable relationship - not
Emotional ties

In describing why person would fast all Passover over and above Jewish Law
Practice, you used the words "emotional attachment". In the seven years
since that wording , perhaps the message is deeper.

Salamone Rossi the Jewish Italian composer, became a hero of the
assimilationist movement. See AJS Review volume 26 #1 where where a series
of books by one Don Harran re Rossi is reviewed.

Twice in Adon Olam, the series of fast phrases of excitement called Tritum
or whatever is used twice
??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????   ???? ?? ???? ?_?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ...

???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? - ??? ???? ? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? -
????? ?? ???? ???

??? ????? - ??? ????? - ????? ???? - ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????
??????? -

???? ????? ????? ??? - ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? - ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????
- ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????

????? ??? ????? - ?? - ???? ?_?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ...

?????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????  - ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ...


The reviewer  - a music professor at Northeastern U in Boston MA -
illustrates that limitless exhaustive research did not turn up for M.
Harran the fact that in the surrounding milieu which Mr. Rossi is immersed
in - these patterns aare reserved for ttheir Trinity.. Lhavdil elef
havdalot.    Rossi as a Jew with beating Jewish Heart - in Adon Olam his
famous composition - when it came to Our God - he proudly used the pattern
of the ecstasy of the Tritium (apologies of not being able to look up -
will scan and send but each moment I am  in danger of interrruption - ) .

Why Yeihareig ? Why not float with the waves? Answer - because it is
identity of Jew - visceral reaction necessary! taht is Key!

Common motif of Piyut - ?????? ????? ?????? ????? - countering their
attempted invasion and depriving us of identity - the desperation of
drowning brings us to keep our identity-

baby will starve self to reserve independence - if it is deprived from baby

Not in complete normal routine vassalry to Hashem. But it is the assertion
of identity.

Sneh Boeir - Papers of Adoption - of formation of Partnership - not the
bylaws which may never be read - but the primary identity of Hasheem as
responsible party specifically to act as parent re MY CHILD -

thsi is basic bedrock Jew - as Rashi certainly subscribed, and rashbam, and
likely R' Yonah even Ramban.  For my money - when functioning as Jewish
Natnion member - the Rambam himself, codifier of the Doctrinal Jew.

Back to subject after rant - A JS Reviewer -  just like they show reverence
for their Hero - we show reverence for our Hero - One God -

that the reviewer explained for the first - ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????
What of second threesome - look in Tur for Ecstasy - OC 5 -
???? ?_?? ??? ????? ???? ????

takif..???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????  - ???? ?? ????

??? ??? ????? ??? - ???? ?? ???? - ??? ???? ???? ?? - ??? ???? - ???? ????
- ??? ???? ???

??? ???? ??????? ?? ??? - ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? - ?? ??
??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? - ?? ?????? - ??? ?????? ????? ??????
???? -

???? ???? ?? ??? ?? -

???? ??? ????? ????? ????? -

??? ??? ????? - ?????? ????? ?????
??? ????? - ??

??? ??? ???? - ?? ??? ??? ????? - ??? ????? - ???? ?????? ?????? - ????
???? ?????? ????? ?? ?? - ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????

???? ????? ?????? 148-155 - ?_?_?_? ??? ?? - ????? ???? 148 ???? ????
?????? -

?? ?????? - ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? - ??? ????? ????? ????? - ?? ???
??? ???? ???? ?? ????? =-  ??? ???????? ?????? ????? ????? - ?? ???? -

????? - ?????? - ???? ???? - ??? ??? ????? - ??? ??? ?? ????? - ????? ???
??? ?????? - ??? ????? -

????? ??? ?????? ?????? - ???? ???? ?? ???????

????? ??? - ????? - ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???????

????? ?? - ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??"? - ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????
??? ?? ???? -

???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???-?????  ?? ????? ?? ?? ?????? - ??? ???? ????

???? ?????? ?? ??? ???? - ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??!

????? - ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? -

?? ??? ??? ???? ?????

 ?? ???

David Wacholder
Cell: 917-742-7838
Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
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Message: 2
From: Joe Slater
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 12:24:45 +1100
Re: [Avodah] wine choice

Wine in those days was frequently (typically?) flavored with resins or
spices, some of which are actually toxic. These resins seem to have had the
same effect as hops do in beer: they discourage microbial growth and
therefore prevent it from souring and spoiling. This was an important
consideration before the invention of Pasteurisation.

If R' Yonah was allergic or otherwise sensitive to these resins he may have
ascribed his symptoms to the wine itself. Alternatively, perhapshe simply
didn't have access to any untreated wine and perhaps he didn't consider
raisin "wine" to be chashuv enough.

Joe Slater
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Message: 3
From: Joe Slater
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 12:27:16 +1100
Re: [Avodah] Yaknehaz [was: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum]

Another data point: I asked my father O'H about this and he said he'd never
heard of anyone using a Havdala candle for YAKNEHAZ, or even joining two
flames together. He came from central Hungary, and his rabbi was a
great-nephew of Maharam Schick.

Joe Slater
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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 23:32:06 -0400
Re: [Avodah] wine choice

On 04/01/2015 03:25 PM, Mordechai Harris wrote:
> There is a lot of info here: http://seforim.blogspot.com/2012/10/wine-strength-and-dilution.ht
> ml

It is interesting, but I think the author may have made a simple mistake
in assuming that when Rashi says their wines were "stronger" than ours,
he meant "more alcoholic".   That may be what he meant, in which case he
was mistaken, but it seems to me that he may have meant "strong tasting",
or to put it more bluntly, "sour".

Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

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Message: 5
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 12:18:06 +0300
[Avodah] kitniyot

see a discussion at


by Rav Brosky

Eli Turkel
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Message: 6
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 10:53:59 -0400
[Avodah] Historic Practice Passover Offering

See the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kgbRusmqjs



As reported earlier, in preparation for the upcoming festival of 
Passover, this past Wednesday (5 Nisan - 25 March) the 'Priestly 
Training Academy' established by the Temple Institute held a Passover 
offering practice drill. This is a film that documents this event. 
This was the most accurate and authentic reenactment of this service 
to have taken place in nearly 2,000 years.

It looks to me that they used machine matzos in this video.  If I am 
correct,  then I find this bizarre. YL
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Message: 7
From: David Wacholder
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 16:36:26 -0400
Re: [Avodah] kezayit

How many swallows of Matzo are necessary?
How many olive tree generations to Calendar Year Tohu and Gan Eden?

The following came up last year:
swallow is a Kezayit, the amount which fulfils the Mitzvah and is the
measure for the Bracha on Achilas Matza. As a Hidur and to erase all
doubt, a second normal swallow would be good. That is for Motzi-Matzah,
where the first olive-size swallowed fulfils a Torah obligation.

Additional for Afikoman one swallow is certainly enough. For a person
struggling to eat, try to eat at least a taste.

Any more than that is for those who tolerate Matzo well.

I look at how much a person can swallow - one swallow. That would measure
a Kezayit. 100% the person has fulfilled the Mitzvah after one swallow.
For margin of error issues, add another second swallow. For those with
difficulty eating, one may then stop. For Afikoman the one swallow
is sufficient.

This needs no authority to base it on. Chazon Ish gave his asembled
family pieces about the size of his palm , as described by qualified
dedicated observer in Orchos Rabeinu. Traditions vary. Some quoted Rav
Chaim Valozhiner as saying - the size of an olive is an olive is an
olive. Another tradition said one must use an egg-size as a base unit.

On Atkins Low-Carb Diet, daily consumption was - for starting extreme
levels - 30 grams per day - about an ounce. I cut the piece of Challah,
which by volume probably was an olive, but the air pockets should have
been counted, so the person could say Birkas Hamazon for themselves.
Someone else was Motzi the dieter in Birkat Hamazon.

Air pockets and weight issue
The swallow size may be according the the air pockets normally contained
in Matzo, not ground, and according to volume not weight.

By weight, comparable amount of Chareidim Boro Park 5774 MATZOS weighed
perhaps 7 grams compared to perhaps 30 grams of a heavy brand of Hand
Matzo. Using volume measures as weight measures creates significant
errors. The person had been using 30 grams of WEIGHT as the Standard,
not 30 grams of volume. It was a reasonably filled sandwich bag. Also
Matzo can absorb moisture from the air making it heavier, can be freshened
in the oven, which will make it weigh less. Volume remains the same.
 Weighing your Matza introduces a major error factor.

According to Rav Elchanan Wasserman, even a non-believer fulfils the
Mitzvah, Shekein Neheneh. I have doubts if Kavana Hafucha would even work.
I certainly think a person should not have Kavana Hafucha in the sense
of - only be Yotzei when Measurement X is reached.

This is neither cheekful nor yet a mouthful. Observe how your neighbor
swallows his food eating calmly.
[DW comment - this is a normal comfortable swallow, not a contestant
requiring for safety a Hatzala person or Heimlich Maneuver needed to
This is not a Superman-Swallower who attempts to swallow the size of all
olives ever eaten, whose face turns red but comes out OK after a KAPITAL
TEHILIM. That is Achila Shelo K'darkah, and certainly is not optimum.

That eliminates the Double and Exponential/Logarithmic olives from
consideration for a single swallow. Never swallow more than a comfortable

No custom requires swallowing all at once in the Sukkah. Others require an
Egg Plus size.
Aruch Hashulchan functioned as a review of the other Poskim in Orach
Chaim. He pointedly does not double the Kezayit. MISHNA BRURAH - to my
reading - says the same. Indeed I grant the MB does not totally negate
a double-size as having precedent.


On a flat table, I measured my keyboard's width two different ways. first,
using all ten fingers flat on table, it was 4 hands wide.  With thumbs in
air and only the eight fingers flat on the table, my keyboard was 5.5 hands
wide. The thumbs were sideways, so the width added drilled through the
wrinkle on the back to the fold on the front. This would be the thumb
measured in Halacha.  I certainly am not a measurement specialist, so I
appreciate all feedback. According to best knowledge, that through-thumb
measurement is the one which is supposed to be 25 percent of the other four

Even the writings of CHzon Ish reflect a defensive stance. As a practical
matter, the CI knew in his heart that a Zayis will not change in recorded
history. Olive trees of 1000 years old are not uncommon, and one in EY is
2000 years old. They are propogated from plantings identical to the
original.   As little as three generations of trees  in EY could easily
reach Calender Year 1.

RABI YOCHANAN ATE ONE OLIVE-  and made bracha acharona. It was the big
variety salad olive, or a large specimen of the oil olive.

I was convinced by a strong presentation in a conference from several years
ago. A Bar Ilan professor compared olives from various species and showed
pictures of all the oldest olive trees in EY. The oil olives were in the 4
cc to 7 cc (4-7 grams volume). Salad olives - the kind whose seeds were
commonly eaten in Masada - max out at 17 grams. He convincingly argued that
double size super-olives would in all likelihood kill the trees.

4 ccs is well below an average swallow.  Please double check my numbers, as
I am writing from memory.

David Wacholder

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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 21:58:16 -0400
Re: [Avodah] naive kitniyos question

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 12:34:15PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
: Re kitniyos: isn't the issur one of "cooking" with kitniyos? ...

Take 2 at answering this question. My wife found
"6.     Kitniyot That Never Touched Water and Kitniyot Oils"
by R' Eliezer Melamed

    We are not stricter with kitniyot than we are with the five cereal
    grains, so whatever is acceptable regarding these grains is kosher
    for kitniyot, too. Thus, kitniyot that have not come into contact
    with water, or that have come into contact with water but were not
    left for more than 18 minutes before being cooked (like matza),
    may be eaten. Some poskim are stringent in this respect, but most
    are lenient.[4]

    [4] Most authorities are not stricter about kitniyot than about the
    cereal grains (SAH 453:5; ??ayei Adam 127:1; Responsa Maharsham 1:183;
    Be'er Yitzhak sec. 11; Responsa Marheshet sec. 3; and Rav Kook's
    Orah Mishpat sec. 111). Some, however, are more stringent (Sho'el
    U-meishiv 1:1:175 and Ma'amar Mordechai sec. 32). Their rationale
    is that no one would understand these distinctions since kitniyot do
    not become hametz. Additionally, they were concerned that making the
    kitniyot exactly like the cereal grains would mislead people to think
    they could use kitniyot to fulfill the mitzva of matza. As noted,
    though, most poskim are lenient, and in any dispute about a custom
    the halakha follows the lenient opinion.

    The Rishonim also debate whether or not scalding works for kitniyot,
    since scalding any of the five cereal grains technically eliminates
    the possibility of its leavening, though the Ge'onim agree that no
    one knows how to scald the grains properly (SA 454:3). However,
    according to Or Zaru'a 2:256, since the prohibition of kitniyot
    is just a custom, scalding the kitniyot is effective and permits
    them. Mordechai rules stringently, and Rabbeinu Peretz's glosses to
    Smak sec. 222 notes the lenient opinion but rules stringently.

So it seems the pesaq I grew up with is, in REM's estimaton, the minority

And if my sevara holds: It would mean the machloqes is a machloqes as
to whether qitniyos are compared to wheat or to dough.

Which again would be reflected in the various theories about what risk
it is the minhag is trying to avoid: qitniyos includes things used like
grain, which can cause confusion of chameitz with mutar legume products;
qitniyos could have real flour on them (as per Rava's admonition to the
reish galusa's household), etc...

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

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Message: 9
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 16:32:11 +0000
[Avodah] Tan Du

I think we've discussed R'YBS's famous statement on ontological chazakot on
a number of occasions. I was glad to see that I have giant shoulders to
stand on (hat tip-Isaac Newton):

Tradition - Winter 2014 (Rabbi N. Helfgot)
In a famous episode in 1975, the Rav strongly denounced a proposal raised
by R. Emanuel Rackman, z"l to reevaluating the validity of the Talmudic
dictum "a woman would always be rather married to anyone (even a scoundrel)
than be alone" in the modern context.  R. Rackman called on religious
authorities to reevaluate the reach of this dictum as a way of addressing
the scourge of modern day recalcitrant husbands who did not give their
estranged spouses a get.  The reevaluation of this principle might be an
opening to examine the use of halakhic annulment of marriages.	The Rav
vigorously maintained that this principle, like all hazakot of Hazal, was
"an ontological statement" about the nature of women, not subject to
changing historical factors or changing social mores.
R. Lichtenstein in both private conversation with a number of talmidim over
the decades, including this author and in remarks in public shiurim, noted
his disagreement with the Rav's assessment of this hazaka (and expressed
astonishment at the vehemence of the Rav's opposition at the time) given
the clear cut evidence in the Rishonim in Yevamot and other places in Shas
which clearly indicated that this hazaka was not one that applied in all
contexts and at all times and in all situations.

I don't recall that R'YBS said this was true of all chazakot of Chazal but haven't listened to that audio in a long time.

Joel Rich

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Message: 10
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 14:06:33 +0300
[Avodah] rabbits

<< But PS can someone remind me what a picture of a rabbit is doing in the
: medieval illustrated Hagada?

There is a fundamental reason why pictures of people were avoided. >>

Yet many of the medieval haggadot had pictures of people and even (wow)

Eli Turkel
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