Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 53

Wed, 01 Apr 2015

• 1. Re: Yaknehaz - who uses an avukah? (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Of Gebrokts and Kitniyos (Yisrael Herczeg)
• 4. Re: Of Gebrokts and Kitniyos (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Yaknehaz [was: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum] ()
• 6. Re: Yaknehaz [was: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum] (Micha Berger)
• 7. 13th century zeal (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: Of Gebrokts and Kitniyos (Kenneth Miller)
• 9. Re: wine choice (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: wine choice (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: wine choice (Mordechai Harris)
• 12. kezayit (Eli Turkel)
• 13. Re: kezayit (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Yaknehaz [was: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum] ()

On 03/31/2015 06:31 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> In the thread "The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum", I referred to the
> view of Rav Moshe Feinstein:
>
>>>... when Yom Tov is Motzaei Shabbos (as will be in chu"l in a few
>>> days), everyone puts two candles together for Yaknehaz, and no one
>>> worries about the dripping wax.

> And R' Zev Sero responded:
>
>> And yet "everyone" doesn't do this.  For instance I have never
>> seen it or even heard of it until now.

> It is mentioned in Shmiras Shabbos K'hilchasa vol 2, 62:18.
>
> I'm just curious if and how RZS - and the rest of the chevra - has an
> avuka for Yaknehaz. I have heard of those who simply forego it on
> this occasion, and use the light of the Neros Yom Tov. (This too is
> mentioned in SSK there.)

All I can report is my own experience, which is as you quote from SSK, to use
the Yomtov candles and not an avukah.   I never thought much about the reason
why, nor wondered whether everyone does it that way.  Evidently the answer is "no".

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On 03/31/2015 05:37 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 10:02:27AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> :> A little humility might help. RMF finished Shas well over 100 times
> :> and SA probably more than that.
> :> He told Rabbi Riskin that until the age of 60 he never forgot anything.
> :> So the likelihood that he forgot a Taz he is about zero.
> :> He either explained the Taz differently or else simply disagreed with
> :> the Taz.

> : The Taz is explicit, and it doesn't matter whether he agreed with it; the
> : existence of this Taz destroys his entire point...

> No, because RMF isn't chayav to follow the Taz.

It's got *nothing to do* with whether he is chayav to follow the Taz
or not. (Not that there's anything in it not to follow!) The existence
of this Taz seems to destroy his entire argument. If there is some
way to rescue his argument in the face of this Taz I invite anyone to
suggest it. If you can't find some way to do it, then you have to admit
that he could not have had it in his mind.

> Nor is he chayav nor
> consistently address acharonim who disagree with his conclusion.

Once again, it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. His entire
argument from mustard simply cannot be made in the face of this Taz.
If one wants to make it one must first *disprove* the Taz, which
is impossible. *Nobody*, not RMF or anyone else, can build an entire
argument on the basis of the absence of any discernible rule for kitniyos
that would include mustard, in the face of a Taz that gives the rule!

On 03/31/2015 05:37 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> BTW, the Taz himself is giving a nir'eh hata'am for why mustard is
> different than the Rama's permitting anise or coriander. So, it's not
> like he's providing a pesaq, but explaining existing common practice
> that appears to contradict pesaq. In short, the Taz is doing WRT the
> inclusion of mustard pretty much what RMF was doing to canonize the
> existing exclusions of peanuts!

Once again, what are you talking about? THE RAMA forbids mustard.
The Taz just explains why.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

>>But let's not get buried under the reports of RMF and R' Tuvia Goldstein,
>>and forget that we have conflict in reports about whether RSZA would
>>allow someone to start eating gebrochts after hataras nedarim.
>
>>So, while rumor might say he did, we have a first-hand report from R
>>Yisrael Herczeg that tells us to ignore the grapevine.

>Perhaps he changed his mind!  It has happened before.

Perhaps.  I just looked over the notes of the droshoh Rav Yitzchok
Mordechai HaKohen Rubin gave last Shabbos. He  said that Rav Elyashiv
 allowed for hataras neder on gebrochts. He also mentioned that Rav Chaim
Kanyevski said that the Steipler was matir neder on gebrochts for someone
who had difficulty eating matzah unless it was softened with liquid. He
added that Rav Chaim Greineman said that the Chazon Ish told him that the
Steipler's heter was invalid.
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At 02:33 AM 4/1/2015, Yisrael Herczeg wrote:
>Perhaps.?  I just looked over the notes of the 
>droshoh Rav Yitzchok Mordechai HaKohen Rubin 
>gave last Shabbos. He ? said that Rav Elyashiv ? 
>allowed for hataras neder on gebrochts. He also 
>mentioned that Rav Chaim Kanyevski said that the 
>Steipler was matir neder on gebrochts for 
>someone who had difficulty eating matzah unless 
>it was softened with liquid. He added that Rav 
>Chaim Greineman said that the Chazon Ish told 
>him that the Steipler's heter was invalid.


Does not the SA say that a person who has trouble 
chewing matzah can soak it in water and then eat 
it?  If so,  then I fail to see why eating 
gebrokts should be a problem for anyone.

Also,  were not the matzos that were used in the 
time of the SA thicker than ours?

YL

 



On 03/30/2015 10:26 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah  wrote:
> The main part of the teshuva is that when Yom Tov is Motzaei  Shabbos
> (as will be in chu"l in a few days), everyone puts two  candles
> together for Yaknehaz, and no one worries about the dripping  wax.

And yet "everyone" doesn't do this. For instance I have never seen  it
or even heard of it until now.

-- 
Zev  Sero
z...@sero.name




>>>>>
 
Now that is surprising!  You've seen or heard of everything! -- but  not 
this?  It was the norm in my parental home and is what my husband does  too.  
In fact I have never seen anyone use a regular havdala candle at a  seder! 
(Or a single wick candle without joining it to another candle or to a  match.)
 
But PS can someone remind me what a picture of a rabbit is doing in the  
medieval illustrated Hagada?
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 12:03am EDT, RnTK wrote:
:        It was the norm in my parental home and is what my husband does  too.  
: In fact I have never seen anyone use a regular havdala candle at a  seder! 
: (Or a single wick candle without joining it to another candle or to a  match.)

A local yeshiva qetana sells two-wick candles that otherwise look like
Shabbos candles as a fundraiser. This way you don't have a fire lasting
as long as whatever is left on your havdalah candle, and the whole
problem is avoided.

: But PS can someone remind me what a picture of a rabbit is doing in the  
: medieval illustrated Hagada?

There is a fundamental reason why pictures of people were avoided.
Espectially in a book people use in large part for davening. I assume
you're asking why rabbits / hares in particular.

1- Yaknehaz (the mnemonic for the order of berakhos in qiddush-havdalah)
sounds a lot like "jag den has" -- hunt the hare. (Prof Louis Feldman's
theory.)

2- In Polish, the word for hare is Zajac, or to transliterate "Zayantz".

3- Often the scenes would identify the victim of antisemitism with
the hunted rabbit. In a sense: the Jews went into Av like Judean lions
(which is the mazal of Av), but we emerged like hunted rabbits.

4- Spring, fertility, rabbits. Like lehavdil some other religion does.
Actually, given the age of those hagados, it could be they're imitating
the haggadah...

Personally, althoguh I am not a historian, no.s 2 and 3 dovetail too well
to be coincidence. And #1 fits too... They are pictures of the hunted
Zion, which both fits "shelo echad bilvad amad aleinu" and "shefokh
chamaskha" and comes to the mind of Yiddish speakers in Easter Europe when
they hear "jag den has!"

I only included #4 to complete the survey; I don't think it's as likely
as the other three. While I wonder about Purim costumes and Carnivale or
about milchigs on Shavuos and Wittesmontag, I see no reason to assume
their bunny came from or jumped into haggados. Maybe common cause; the
rabbit representing Pesach's "Chag haAviv" aspect.

But adding the fourth idea would more naturally lead you to lambs. The
mazal for Nissan can be naturally seen as victims, although no wordplay
with Yaknehaz. Identifying the gadya with the Jew-in-exile is a common
interpretation of the gadya in Chad Gadya. But it wouldn't explain
rabbits.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

I found the following story from R Kaganoff interesting not only for the
halachic portion but also to show that community fights are not new



The question regarding recital of *mei'ein sheva* when *Yom Tov*
falls on Friday resulted in a very heated dispute during the era of the
Rishonim. In the time of the *Rivash*, Rabbi Amram ben Meroam, a
frequent correspondent of the *Rivash*, wrote him the following *shaylah*:


Reuven was the *chazzan* for the Friday night *davening *on a *Shabbos* that
immediately followed *Yom Tov*. He began reciting *mei'ein sheva*, when
Shimon reprimanded him, contending that one should not recite this *bracha*
when *Shabbos* follows *Yom Tov* -- since no one was working on Friday,
the reason for the *takkanah* did not apply. Levi then got involved, saying
that it is accepted that one *does* recite *mei'ein sheva*on Friday night
following a *Yom Tov*. The *shul* then burst into a cacophony of voices,
with Shimon's and Reuven's backers screaming at one another. Finally,
Shimon shouted that Reuven was desecrating*Hashem's *holy Name, since he
was willing to recite a *bracha* in vain, and that if he did, Shimon would
declare him to be in *cherem*, excommunicated! Reuven did recite the *bracha
mei'ein sheva,* and a day later, opened his door to find Shimon and twenty
of his backers there to notify him that he had been excommunicated! The
Rivash* was asked to rule whether Reuven was indeed in *cherem* because of
Shimon's declaration that he recited a *bracha* in vain, or, perhaps,
Shimon should be placed in *cherem* for excommunicating someone without
proper cause.


The *Rivash* ruled that Shimon was mistaken, and that one should recite
*mei'ein
sheva* when *Shabbos* follows *Yom Tov*. Therefore, he concluded that
Reuven, who followed the correct *halachah*, could completely ignore the
*cherem* placed on him. However, he also concluded that since Shimon
thought he was acting correctly, we do not excommunicate Shimon for his
actions (*Shut HaRivash* #34).

-- 
Eli Turkel
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R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> Does not the SA say that a person who has trouble chewing
> matzah can soak it in water and then eat it?  If so, then
> I fail to see why eating gebrokts should be a problem for
> anyone.

The answer will depend on what you mean by "SA".

If "SA" refers specifically to the author of the Shulchan Aruch, Rav Yosef
Karo, then the answer is that he is not the last word in halacha. There are
other authorities, and someone who follows the others could have a problem
even with something that the SA allows.

If "SA" refers to the Shulchan Aruch in general, then I do not understand
your question, since the problem of gebrokts *IS* mentioned by authorities
other than Rav Karo. If I'm not mistaken, the Shaarei Teshuva (which is in
the printed editions of Mishne Brurah) is a good example.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

I repeated on Areivim RSM's deduction that yayin kal is closest to
the alcohol level of chazal's wine.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 9:39am PDT, R Saul Newman wrote to Areivim:
> interesting, when seeing in ktubot abaye's widow describing the size of
> his wine vessel. by that Percentage, it wouldnt be toxic...

Here's RSM's science, and it seems impeccable:

By natural means, no alcoholic beverage can get above 12% -- at that
level the yeast drowns in its own output. That's why beer and wine tend
to be 12%. We can tweak that up to 16% with specially bred yeast, and/or
control of temperature and humidity -- not options in Chazal's day.

(Higher alcohol drinks are made by distilling out the alcohol from the
original 12% liquid.)

To add my 2 pence:
Their barrels weren't perfect, which means there was more evaporation.
But since alcohol evaporates faster than water, that will only lower
the percentage alcohol. So we're still at about 12% max.

RSM's original line of reasoning, continues:
Mezigas hakos is typically at least 1:3, or 25% wine. So, the final
product would be at most 3%.

A third penny:
Now let's discuss how big a revi'is was back then... But even without
that, I have no idea how any of them would have gotten anywhere near
drunk. Why would R' Yonah have a headache until shavu'os off some 16 oz
total of 3% wine? Do we have to assume it was the alcohol? Maybe he was
a later owner of Abayei's kos...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 04/01/2015 02:05 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Now let's discuss how big a revi'is was back then... But even without
> that, I have no idea how any of them would have gotten anywhere near
> drunk. Why would R' Yonah have a headache until shavu'os off some 16 oz
> total of 3% wine? Do we have to assume it was the alcohol? Maybe he was
> a later owner of Abayei's kos...

I don't think it's at all plausible that it was the alcohol.  I have long
assumed that he had some sort of allergy or intolerance for some component
of grapes or grape skins, or perhaps for the sulfites with which wine was
(and is still) preserved.  It's well known that there are people today who
get headaches from sulfites.

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

There is a lot of info here:
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2012/10/wine-strength-and-dilution.html

Chag Kasher v'Samayach<

Mordechai
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There recently appeared a sefer "Keren Zavit" by Nadav Shenrav on parshat
hashavua that has a very nice combination of science and Torah.

On parshat Tzav he brings a question on the shitah of the Nodah BeYuhuda
that eggs doubled in size.

The Noda Beyehuda claims that there is a contradiction between two
sugyot that find measurements based on either the size of the egg or from
length (or volume) measurements.
To answer the contradiction the Nodah Beyehuda assumes that our eggs are
half the size of those in the days of chazal. (Actually modern eggs are
larger than those in his day)

The basic point is that in order to translate the measurements of chazal to
modern measurements we need a fixed point, ie some measurement that has not
changed over the generations. If everything can change we have only
relative measurements and not absolute measurements.
The Nodah BeYehuda assumes that the width of the thumb is constant.

Question: Rambam (maaseh hakorbanot 13:14) states the kemitzah which
cinsists of 3 fingers closed over the palm contains 2 kezatim. However 2
kezaytim of 50cc (ie 100cc) is impossible to enclose within 3 fingers. He
brings that he saw this question in a series "Bet Aharon VeYisrael"
and they answered "nishtanu hateva" i.e. their hands were bigger and could
hold 100c of flour within 3 fingers. (In general the author is not
impressed with the answer of "nishtane hateva" but he assumes it for this
article).

However, this leads to an internal contradiction, ie Noda Beyehuda assumes
that the size of the thumb has not changed but is required to assume that
the size of the hand was much larger in the days of chazal  ie how is it
possible that their hands were MUCH larger but the width of the thumb
remained constant.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 10:30:53PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: There recently appeared a sefer "Keren Zavit" by Nadav Shenrav on parshat
: hashavua that has a very nice combination of science and Torah.
: 
: On parshat Tzav he brings a question on the shitah of the Nodah BeYuhuda
: that eggs doubled in size.

AISI, there are three distinct questions that generally get lumped together
in the annual kezayis discussion:

1- Is "kezayis" a constant volume, or is it pinned to the average olive,
or perhaps the average among some subset of breeds of olive as breeding,
care and climate change?

R' Chaim Volozhiner and the Avnei Neizer say the latter.

You might remember my post from last Jan at.
<http://aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n006.shtml#01>.

The AhS OC 363:34 says that lehalakhah an ammah is the person involved's
forearm. E.g. when measuring 4 amos for tiltul, the din is more chamur
for me than for taller people. When coming to mavui or techum, where
you need a single pesaq for a whole town, you need a standardized ammah,
"ameru chakhamim denimdod lechumerah" it's the length of the arm of some
very high percentile of the people relying on it (and possibly 100%) --
"debevadei yeish anashim shezehu midasan". (Also, when dealing with
someone with a handicap or amputation, you need to use estimates.)

To me this seems to feed RCV's approach. Because both assume that
measurements are not absolute, but based on the set of whatevers involved.

For example, the AhS's position about the standard ammah would imply
that a community that is atypically tall would use a longer ammah
for techum than in a ghettod population whose malnutrition stunted
their typical growth.

2- If kezayis is a constant volume, do all the accepted overestimates
performed and accumulated one atop the other unwind when we have more
information about chazal's zeisim? Or do we say that the bottom of the
range of measurments that dominate common pratice in one's qehillah is
binding as pesaq, and one can't just ignore the now huge safety margin?

This is what I argued here when RNS's paper came out
http://www.zootorah.org/RationalistJudaism/TheEvolutionOfTtheOlive.pdf

(And if so, is that extra amount considered as deOraisa as the original
olive volume, because it's a pesaq in a din deOraisa? Or is it a
harchaqah, and thus derabban?

3- The actual specifics
3a- If the answe to #2 is that we do roll back the kezayis based on
better information about what it was, the metzi'us specifics can still
be argued. Such as asking (as I did in passing in #1) which subset of
olives to average.
3b- And if the answer is that we don't, then there are halachic process
details to ask about.

But I think many discussions, including our own previous years'
iterations, stuble because they blur these topics rather than keeping them
separate, which in turn would force dealing with them in the sequence
I gave as well. (Because #2 depends on one kind of answer to #1, and #3
has different flavors depending on #2.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

In a message dated 4/1/2015 6:28:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mi...@aishdas.org writes:
 
On Wed,  Apr 01, 2015 at 12:03am EDT, RnTK wrote:
:        It  was the norm in my parental home and is what my husband does  
too.   
: In fact I have never seen anyone use a regular havdala candle at a   
seder! 
: (Or a single wick candle without joining it to another candle or  to a  
match.)

A local yeshiva qetana sells two-wick candles that  otherwise look like
Shabbos candles as a fundraiser. This way you don't  have a fire lasting
as long as whatever is left on your havdalah candle,  and the whole
problem is avoided.

 
 
>>>>>
 
 
I wasn't really clear.  What my parents used to do (and we do  similarly) 
was to take one Shabbos candle ot of the candlestick and  hold its flame 
close to another Shabbos candle for the bracha, and then put  it back in the 
candlestick it came out of.  IOW we use the candles that are  already burning 
on the table anyway.
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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