Volume 33: Number 28
Thu, 19 Feb 2015
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 17:00:54 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Going from Gemara to halacha
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 08:38:41AM -0500, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: The Gemara Moed Katan 5a discusses the source for marking a
: grave. Amoraim give about 7 different psukim. The Rosh and Rif quote 3
: of the amoraim in bringing this halacha down. Would you understand that
: each pasuk has a different force and all the reasons apply (for purposes
: of halachic analysis of new cases) or that only a combination of all 3
: would yield the psak but any one missing would not? Or why bring 3 of 7?
Or that the other 4 have implications we do not hold of?
(Just trying to drum up more interest in the question.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 17:26:50 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] haftarah before yahrtzeit
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 03:44:29PM -0500, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: As best I can tell, the source for saying haftarah the Shabbat before a
: yahrtzeit is the Zohar in acharei mot (77a) which refers to a "yanukah"
: (tinok) saying a haftarah. Given the "lower" level of the maftir aliya
: (we let a non bar mitzvah have it in circumstances) doesn't it seem odd
: to make it the priority? Or am I missing something?
Referencing "Michael" from the KAJ J-m bulletin board
http://www.kayj.net/en/forum/minhogim/2151-haftorah-on-yartzheit
Yekkish minhag is to get an aliyah, preferably not maftir, and only
if the yahrzeit is on Shabbos, nothing special about the Shabbos
before a mid-week yahrzeit. (RGStudent cites the Penei Barukh, 2nd
opinion. Returning to the BBS answer...)
The Rama mentions maftir in particular (again, on the day of yahrzeit),
but the Rama is citing the Maharil who speaks about qetanim. So Michael
assums that's what the Rama means too.
I couldn't find the Rama, so I can't say whether it's plausible to say
that the rest of us believe the Rama actually did mean everyone.
But I want to mention two other minhagim that may be relevant:
1- Someone having yahrzeit that week getting the amud for mussaf
2- Giving preferance to the maftir when picking a baal tefillah for mussar
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 17:35:05 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] haftarah before yahrtzeit
On 02/18/2015 05:26 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>
> The Rama mentions maftir in particular (again, on the day of yahrzeit),
> but the Rama is citing the Maharil who speaks about qetanim. So Michael
> assums that's what the Rama means too.
>
> I couldn't find the Rama, so I can't say whether it's plausible to say
> that the rest of us believe the Rama actually did mean everyone.
The Rama is YD 376:4
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: dr
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 00:10:24 -0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] How Did Rashi Make a Living?
Rashi gets this from Rabbeinu Chananel. The calculation is also alluded to
in the Yerushalmi [Eiruvin 20:]. The essay Studies in Hebrew Mathematics
and Astronomy by Solomon Gandz, published in Proceedings of the American
Academy for Jewish Research
Vol. 9 (1938 - 1939), pp. 5-10 discusses the mathematics prevalent in the time of Chazal.
Dovid
From: via Avodah
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 9:57 PM
To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
Subject: Avodah Digest, Vol 33, Issue 27
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150219/6112f29e/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 02:36:55 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] haftarah before yahrtzeit
R' Micha Berger wrote:
> The Rama mentions maftir in particular (again, on the day of
> yahrzeit), but the Rama is citing the Maharil who speaks about
> qetanim. So Michael assumes that's what the Rama means too.
>
> I couldn't find the Rama, so I can't say whether it's plausible
> to say that the rest of us believe the Rama actually did mean
> everyone.
R' Zev Sero answered:
> The Rama is YD 376:4
The Rama on YD 376:4 is unusually long (over 30 lines by my count) so perhaps I'm not looking at the same part of it as you two are.
From what I see, that Rama begins with a few lines about what to do right
after the burial, but most of it is about shloshim and the twelves months.
At no point in that whole Rama did I notice anything about the yahrzeit.
The one place where I saw maftir mentioned was about 1/4 of the way
through, where the Rama says:
"Therefore, they are noheg to say the last Kaddish for the father and
mother for 12 months. The also have the minhag to be maftir in Navi and to
daven maariv on Motzaei Shabbos because that's when the neshamos return to
gehinom, so when the son davens and is Mekadesh B'rabim, he redeems his
father and mother from gehinom."
I saw nothing about the yahrzeit. It sounds to me like the Rama would have the son reading the haftara and davening maariv on Motzaei Shabbos all year.
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
How Old Men Tighten Skin
63 Year Old Man Shares DIY Skin Tightening Method You Can Do From Home
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/54e54c69ac89d4c6959b2st04vuc
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Michael Poppers
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 22:16:39 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Jewish jokes
In Avodah V33n27, RZS wrote:
> You may as well ask what he did to deserve the bad interpretation in the
first place. After all, dreams go after the interpretation, so it was up
to Yosef to say whatever he liked. <
Did MaLBiM explain how Yosef could have logically interpreted "I held
Par'oh's cup, grabbed the raw material, and made a royal drink" in a
negative manner and "birds ate the royal bread off the basket on my head
[before Par'oh could]" in a positive manner? Could R'Zev? (The latter
question is rhetorical.)
All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150218/d788f526/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 23:49:59 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] haftarah before yahrtzeit
On 02/18/2015 09:36 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I saw nothing about the yahrzeit. It sounds to me like the Rama would
> have the son reading the haftara and davening maariv on Motzaei
> Shabbos all year.
Yes, that is the topic of that Rama, but it seems obvious that the same
hanhagos that apply during the year would be appropriate for the yortzeit,
except for davening Maariv on Motzoei Shabbos (since Gehenom is no longer
relevant).
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 05:25:03 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] Majority Rule?
The Sanhedrin operates by majority rule. Is this a binyan av or
exception based on the beit hillel/shamai gemara as to bet hillel getting
the nod due to superior headcount even though bet shammai were sharper ?
This question would seem to make a particular difference in whether lo
tasur was a din in Sanhedrin/musmachim or for all rabbinic pronouncements.
It might also be tied to the question of who is entitled to an opinion -
is there some threshold and how is it determined. In this context, the
whole R' Meir being so brilliant that he was ignored may be a similar
question tied to how we understand eilu v'eilu .
Thoughts or sources?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE
ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is
strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150219/1e47a3f7/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: David Wacholder
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 02:31:33 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] Different Ways of Pronouncing Hebrew
Subject: [Avodah] FW: Different Ways of Pronouncing Hebrew
R' Dr. Seth Mandel Shlita inspires me to my own more ambitious
formulation.
Masorah means that, - passed on tradition preserved - a change that is made
by the community unconsciously. The best nusach of the open spaces Parshios
and letters of the Torah is not the latest invention - it is the oldest
most reliable Sefer Torah we have. Any errors of copying are inadvertent
and hopefully avoidable. Sofrim, specialists who are devoted to perfection,
write the Sefer Torah for the rest of us.
What applies to the letters and empty spaces, would apply, though less
absolutely and more loosely, to the Pronunciation standard. Every Minyan
has a leader, and every individual recites prayers daily.
In community practice, purists do not always win. Only the most easily
imitated pronunciation rules are universally adopted. When it comes to
harder obscure cases, the consensus approach rejects it as unattainable, or
else ignores it as Esoteric.
'Thus mimetic standards need not be self- consistent. Consistency is only
within reach of scholars, who track down the theory and then trim here and
there to straighten out.
Irony of ironies, when the waters calm, the result may often be worse -
further from the original tradition and practice - and further from the
Ideal Torah!!
Let us seek the optimum strategy to preserve the Torah. Based on R' Seth,
our preferred strategy - if Torah be preserved - is: We must accurately
track down the best version of the original, and use only that accurate
edition. Thus for Torah Neviim Ksuvim - we seek the Minchas Shay, the
Breuer Tanach, and other such collations.
In contrast, any adding to the words of the sefer Torah - no matter how
well intentioned - is cutting into the fabric of Torah.
Continuity protects and preserves Judaism. That intangibles known as either
Hatzneia Leches and Anava humility, those intangible instruct us that we
should gratefully receive the Torah unchanged. To learn from the careful
tailor, Preserve many times, do not pursue changes.
Long past is the time that we can preserve the status quo solely by
shunning innovation. Under cover of mimetic continuity, newly minted
improvements are implemented willy nilly. Protestations of Gedolim to keep
a secret, not to dredge up doubtful questions, are simply ignored
completely. Since the Gadol was trapped maneuvered into not saying
Permitted without hesitation, the manipulators are gleefully publicizing -
Gadol says Assur, only renegades will be on the lenient side. By refusing
to accept Leave it alone! as an answer, they eventually attain their
coveted nouveau - Issur. Cheapening themselves, Mafsid the Tzibur and
falsifying the Torah are not relevant considerations for the relentless
forces of Issur. Meritless untested impractical changes can be foisted upon
the public. Instantly - strike the band - "A Chumra is born! " . Six
months later, volume production allows discounting, Brand Name
"Kedusha-at-Bargain-Prices".
Opportunists need not be rebellious groups. Our very own home grown Holy
nouveau-mimetic Lesheim Shamayim creative innovators - are a force in the
direction of undermining the continuity. The appointed Rav of village
Europe had a starving impoverished clientele, clearly defined. Faced with
starving impoverished familes, no search was made for novel Chumros. Such
greats as the Galya Masechta or Shaagas Aryeh could introduce contrarian
lenient practices in their communities, in rare instances. May I suggest
that even those practices were only implemented in unique bastions of
Torah, where the Tzibur were Torah educated and very obedient to their
Rabbanim.
In contrast, European Union style, we substituted a painter's palate of
shades, with the choice in the hands of the consumer. The pamphleteers are
now free to unleash their one-upmanship; for the affluent consumer the
inventors designate the new invention as Hefsed Muat. For the well
positioned producer, credit accrues for uniquely providing a unique Chumra
Yeseira - traceable to a particular specific supplier - and various
incidental monopolistic gains.
Dr. R' Seth shlit"a leads us to suggest that we make a Cheshbon Hanefesh.
Let us calculate the true Hefseidim of these superficially attractive
nouveau-Chumros! . Flavor-of-the-Month never will lead to preserving the
continuity. Rather - the optimum Game strategy for preservation, the Atzas
Zekeinim - would be to - preserve the mimetic practices we had originally.
In English, I suggest we identify accurately, then zealously protect
lais?sez-faire
?les? ?fer/
*noun*
1. a policy or attitude of letting things take their own course, without
interfering.
synonyms:noninterventionist, noninterventional, noninterfering
David Wacholder
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150219/a1f9e4da/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Allan Engel
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 11:24:17 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] haftarah before yahrtzeit
On 19 February 2015 at 04:49, Zev Sero via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> On 02/18/2015 09:36 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
>> I saw nothing about the yahrzeit. It sounds to me like the Rama would
>> have the son reading the haftara and davening maariv on Motzaei
>> Shabbos all year.
> Yes, that is the topic of that Rama, but it seems obvious that the same
> hanhagos that apply during the year would be appropriate for the yortzeit,
> except for davening Maariv on Motzoei Shabbos (since Gehenom is no longer
> relevant).
It would also not be relevant for being called up for Maftir for any
yohrzeit other than the first.
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:32:59 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] haftarah before yahrtzeit
On 02/19/2015 06:24 AM, Allan Engel wrote:
> It would also not be relevant for being called up for Maftir for any
> yohrzeit other than the first.
How so? What has it got to do with Gehennom?
Go to top.
Message: 12
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:32:53 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Majority Rule?
R' Joel Rich asked:
> The Sanhedrin operates by majority rule. Is this a binyan av or exception
> based on the beit hillel/shamai gemara as to bet hillel getting the nod
> due to superior headcount even though bet shammai were sharper ? ... It
> might also be tied to the question of who is entitled to an opinion ...
I always thought that the majority rule is directly connected to "acharei
rabim l'hatos". That doesn't answer the question of whose vote gets
counted, but "rabim" seems to clearly look at the quantity of voters, not
their brainpower.
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
How Old Men Tighten Skin
63 Year Old Man Shares DIY Skin Tightening Method You Can Do From Home
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/54e5e63f6146c663f37edst04vuc
Go to top.
Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:27:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Majority Rule?
On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 01:32:53PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: I always thought that the majority rule is directly connected to
: "acharei rabim l'hatos"...
Sanhedrin 2a makes this derashah. And again on 3a, etc...
See also the intreo to the SA and his rule of the majority of 4
rishonim. And the Maharetz Chayes has a long piece on whether the rule
applies outside the Sanhedrin, and if so, how do you decide who to count?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Go to top.
Message: 14
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:10:56 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Different Ways of Pronouncing Hebrew
R' Micha Berger wrote:
> But we were talking about havarah, and whether these changes are halachic.
>
> Is someone yotzei lekhat-chilah if the baal qeri'ah says the Yiddish-
> influenced "Shabbes" rather than giving the beis its proper qamatz?
I sure hope so. If I remember Rav Moshe Feinstein's teshuva accurately,
since we can daven in any language, and the tzibur *does* comprehend such
words, therefore it does not matter whether or not such pronunciations
count as Lashon Hakodesh.
> Many changes are unconscious, and reflect the surrounding language.
> Perhaps even including this example. In general Yiddish and European
> languages tend to put the emphasis earlier in the word.
But that was about davening in general. Birkas Kohanim is different,
because it *does* need to be in Lashon Hakodesh. And when the accent
changes as RMB describes -- "YA-ayr... PA-nav... YI-sah... SHA-lom" -- it
is problematic at the very least.
Again, if I remember Rav Moshe Feinstein's teshuva accurately, he said that
when duchaning, the kohanim have no choice but to use their own
pronunciation, despite the fact that some *other* community might be using
the True And Proper pronunciation, but that this is only because we simply
don't know which is correct. If we *did* know, then we'd have to use it for
duchaning.
Which bring us back to a main point of this thread: Which aspects of one's
pronunciation (if any) can be described as clearly and objectively wrong?
My guess is that the trop can be used as an arbiter in many cases,
especially on the question of which syllable to accent, and even more
especially for a pasuk (like Birkas Kohanim).
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
How Old Men Tighten Skin
63 Year Old Man Shares DIY Skin Tightening Method You Can Do From Home
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/54e5ef09ecf126f093052st02vuc
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
------------------------------
**************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."
A list of common acronyms is available at
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)